Tuner Can't Tune Car

[tdstuart]

The first paragraph of the first post

"Decided to switch from Lund to a new tuner as I didn't like the customer service I was getting. Lund tunes were good but after the motor rebuild something was wrong and Lund kept saying the logs were fine (although I could see some phaser differences) and each new tune they sent me made the car slower even when they said they were sending the same tune (clearly could see cam timing was different in the logs)."

Your entire complaint was the car so slow, not whatever shit your babbling about now

What is the point in replying if you aren’t going to read the original post that started the thread?

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[ice445]

pardon the ignorance...

Unless tuning for a specific fuel characteristic (eg. E85) why wouldn't the timing be broadly the same (upper and lower limits) for every Gen3 NA v8 Mustang? For example let's say Mr. Tuner-I-blowup-customer-engines-because-marketing-WIN sets "allowed advance" at 40 degree as the upper bound, doesn't the control logic have the means of chopping it off at say 32 if the knock sensors assert themselves? Why would/should the tuner reset the upper-bound value to 32 minus a couple?

I thought there was slow-ramp logic in things like spark advance.

Spark timing is complex on these engines. It basically looks at 4 values and selects the lowest. You're correct that for pump gas at least, most every tune will end up around the same total timing. The difference is just how they get there over a whole pull. For example, if you set borderline timing at 40 degrees, and mbt is 45 degrees, but the fuel only allows for 37 degrees in that particular instance (this all depends on things like load, cylinder pressure, temps, etc), now the car has dived head first into knock and has to back down substantially. Not just 3 degrees either, more like 5 or 6 since it's harder to stop knock once it's going.

Now with tune B, borderline is set to 35 degrees in that instance and the logic will add up to those 2 degrees before it sees a hint of knock and backs off. The car will run much better on tune B and feel better even though it can correct for the mistake on tune A. You get to peak torque faster instead of it taking the entire pull to return close to the limit of knock after starting way in the hole. It's why 87 octane feels so dog water on the stock tune.

The more knowledgeable members here can probably explain it better but that's hopefully helpful.

 

[engineermike]

...For example let's say Mr. Tuner-I-blowup-customer-engines-because-marketing-WIN sets "allowed advance" at 40 degree as the upper bound, doesn't the control logic have the means of chopping it off at say 32 if the knock sensors assert themselves?

Man that sounds like what they're doing on the 2024 whipple kits, attempting to push 21 deg of timing (typical E85 timing) and just let the knock sensors catch it. This is what they said in one of the many YT videos and the power they add on octane booster backs it up. Who knows...maybe the knock sensors are that good and the 2018-2023 folks have been leaving bunch of power on the table.

Why would/should the tuner reset the upper-bound value to 32 minus a couple?

Pretty much how I do it. I'll add timing to the borderline "starting point" because those are really set up for 87 octane. Then I'll cut off the knock advance before knock happens. If you always want to avoid knock, you might only wind up around 16-16.5 deg if you experience low humidity. In places that stay humid, you can get up to 18-19. These are all supercharged numbers I'm referring to.

For NA on 93, the Gen3 doesn't seem to be able to get past about 24 deg up top before it knocks. The Gen4 seems to go higher like 26 and the knock algorithm appears to allow more noise before kicking in.

 

[WildHorse]

Now with tune B, borderline is set to 35 degrees in that instance and the logic will add up to those 2 degrees before it sees a hint of knock and backs off. The car will run much better on tune B and feel better even though it can correct for the mistake on tune A.

That's one way. I prefer fast ramps, & higher borderline where I feel comfortable on 91 octane. I check the logs religiously, so far, so good.

 

[ice445]

That's one way. I prefer fast ramps, & higher borderline where I feel comfortable on 91 octane. I check the logs religiously, so far, so good.

If you log and know where the limits are you can definitely do that for the best possible feel and performance. I just like leaving room on the table for the imperfections of life I suppose. Like some crappy fuel on a road trip lol

 

[K4fxd]

The lund tune I saw logs from was running over 25 from 5500 up. actually hit 27 in a section. It was also pulling 2 degrees of timing due to knock.

Looking at the Jug tune I would cap timing at 25 and run another test pull.

 

[WildHorse]

It was also pulling 2 degrees of timing due to knock.

Consistent ? Or at peaks ? I'd leave it at 27 run good fuel and see what the KS will do. It's not like it's gonna blow up.

 

[K4fxd]

Consistent ? Or at peaks

Starts pulling at 6500 and ramps up to 2.75 degrees at 8000.

 

[tdstuart]

Starts pulling at 6500 and ramps up to 2.75 degrees at 8000.

Juggernaut also has the sift points stupid low when doing auto shifting. Like 7500 in first, 6800 in second, and 6600 in third. Idk why its not consistent over the gears or why they would do it like that. If I let it shift by itself it would probably run like a 15 second 60-130. These gear ratios are way to long to short shift like that.

 

[WildHorse]

Starts pulling at 6500 and ramps up to 2.75 degrees at 8000.

That's odd. My stock manifold use to do that, now with my gen 3 intake and PMAS I'm cooking at 29 all the way to 7800. But I'm also 1 point lower in compression.

Idk why its not consistent over the gears or why they would do it like that

They are most likely not giving the trans enough time (flare). so with each progressive gear, it's dropping in RPM. In 1st your getting 7.5k cause there was no previous gear.

 

[K4fxd]

Juggernaut also has the sift points stupid low when doing auto shifting.

Can you talk with him on the phone?

I'd leave it at 27 run good fuel and see what the KS will do. It's not like it's gonna blow up.

IDK, I hate seeing any knock at high RPM and loads.

 

[WildHorse]

IDK, I hate seeing any knock at high RPM and loads.

It's pulling timing anyways so nothing to worry about.
It's just to see if fuel/ambient temps/etc., was the issue.

a little O/T but I think knock at high load, low RPM is much worse.

 

[K4fxd]

a little O/T but I think knock at high load, low RPM is much worse.

True

 

[K4fxd]

It's pulling timing anyways so nothing to worry about.

In order to pull timing it has to knock first.
You might be right but I have a hard time letting it knock.

 

[tdstuart]

Can you talk with him on the phone?

Nope I get about one email response a day smh. And I have to send the email the night before or early morning. If I send an email mid day they won’t respond till the next day

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