Off to a rough start with 2016 GT

[Skye]

So this lawyer didn't think you had any ground to stand on, on the basis of them selling you a car that cannot pass emissions? or can they do this since it was sold in Florida where there are no emissions?

There's winning and the satisfaction that comes with that (+), along with the possibility of $ gains (+), coupled with the time (-), stress (-) and financial costs involved (-). Things don't always balance out well.

I recently concluded what's thought to be a fairly simply legal matter. The lawyer bill alone was a few thousand dollars. Plus additional personal time completing, signing, notarizing and filing documents with the courts.

I'm not complaining, but I can understand why anyone would pause before considering going to court.

Sometimes you make your best effort to right things, lick your wounds and move on.

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[Canuckican]

So this lawyer didn't think you had any ground to stand on, on the basis of them selling you a car that cannot pass emissions? or can they do this since it was sold in Florida where there are no emissions?

Apparently Florida no longer requires emission testing. Nor does the part of Wisconsin where I live. And the "as-is" part means that it doesn't have to have working emissions, if it doesn't it's up to the buyer to repair. There's nothing in the law about finding a big-ass injector nozzle bouncing around the top of the cylinder heads or 4 of 8 cylinders having 1/3 to 1/2 the compression they should. Just more "as-is" stuff. So, make sure the dealership you are potentially buying a used car from lets you tear the top end of the engine off looking for foreign objects. And bring your digital calipers and other tools to measure cylinder bores, run-outs, etc.

This lawyer also discussed the monetary angle. Does it make sense for me to spend an indeterminate amount of money on legal costs when I will most likely still come out on the short end of things?

Gee, maybe I should just feel fortunate that "Mint" Auto Sales of Orlando, Florida did not charge me extra for the big-ass nozzle I found at the top of cylinder three's valves under the intake manifold. It is quite fancy.

 

[luca1290]

I can't wrap my head around how only the 4 cylinders in the center of the engine have low compression while the outer 4 are good.

I'm glad it runs tough.

 

[SheepDog]

I can't wrap my head around how only the 4 cylinders in the center of the engine have low compression while the outer 4 are good.

I'm glad it runs tough.

Warped heads perhaps, or something is off with the timing.

@Canuckican Any bubbles in the coolant reservoir while the engine is running? Does it overheat? Is the coolant level full and stable?

 

[GrabberBargeCaptain]

As nice of an idea as this is, carvana will just pawn it off on some other sucker. I'd personally feel like a douchebag letting this be someone else's problem. It's like those people that hop up a used car with motor honey or some other very temporary fix to get it down the road far enough to not be their problem anymore

Yeah but hopefully that person will just return it within 7 days. Or it won’t pass inspection and they’ll auction it as a basket case.

 

[K4fxd]

Here is Florida. I also checked Wi. It is illegal to sell a emissions defeated car in both states. Find a better lawyer.

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2023 Florida Statutes
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Title XXIII MOTOR VEHICLES

Chapter 316 STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL

SECTION 2935Air pollution control equipment; tampering prohibited; penalty.

316.2935 Air pollution control equipment; tampering prohibited; penalty.—
(1)(a) It is unlawful for any person or motor vehicle dealer as defined in s. 320.27 to offer or display for retail sale or lease, sell, lease, or transfer title to, a motor vehicle in Florida that has been tampered with in violation of this section, as determined pursuant to subsection (7). Tampering is defined as the dismantling, removal, or rendering ineffective of any air pollution control device or system which has been installed on a motor vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer except to replace such device or system with a device or system equivalent in design and function to the part that was originally installed on the motor vehicle. All motor vehicles sold, reassigned, or traded to a licensed motor vehicle dealer are exempt from this paragraph.
(b) At the time of sale, lease, or transfer of title of a motor vehicle, the seller, lessor, or transferor shall certify in writing to the purchaser, lessee, or transferee that the air pollution control equipment of the motor vehicle has not been tampered with by the seller, lessor, or transferor or their agents, employees, or other representatives. A licensed motor vehicle dealer shall also visually observe those air pollution control devices listed by department rule pursuant to subsection (7), and certify that they are in place, and appear properly connected and undamaged. Such certification shall not be deemed or construed as a warranty that the pollution control devices of the subject vehicle are in functional condition, nor does the execution or delivery of this certification create by itself grounds for a cause of action between the parties to this transaction. This paragraph does not apply when the purchaser of the motor vehicle is a lessee purchasing the leased motor vehicle and the licensed motor vehicle dealer is not in possession of the motor vehicle at the time of sale.
(c) All motor vehicles sold, reassigned, or traded by a licensed motor vehicle dealer to a licensed motor vehicle dealer, all new motor vehicles subject to certification under s. 207, Clean Air Act, 42 U.S.C. s. 7541, and all lease agreements for 30 days or less are exempt from this subsection. Also exempt from this subsection are sales of motor vehicles for salvage purposes only.
(2) No person shall operate any gasoline-powered motor vehicle, except a motorcycle, moped, scooter, or an imported nonconforming motor vehicle which has received a one-time exemption from federal emission control requirements under 40 C.F.R. 85, subpart P, on the public roads and streets of this state which emits visible emissions from the exhaust pipe for more than a continuous period of 5 seconds, and no person shall operate on the public roads or streets of this state any motor vehicle that has been tampered with in violation of this section, as determined pursuant to subsection (7).
(3) No person shall operate on the public roads or streets of this state any diesel-powered motor vehicle which emits visible emissions from the exhaust pipe for more than a continuous period of 5 seconds, except during engine acceleration, engine lugging, or engine deceleration.
(4) This section shall be enforced by the Department of Environmental Protection and any law enforcement officer of this state as defined in s. 112.531.
(5) Any person who knowingly and willfully violates subsection (1) shall be punished as follows:
(a) For a first violation, violators shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083, except that a motor vehicle dealer shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(b) For a second or subsequent offense, violators, including motor vehicle dealers, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. In addition, the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles may temporarily or permanently revoke or suspend the motor vehicle dealer license authorized pursuant to the provisions of s. 320.27.
(6) Except as provided in subsection (5), any person who violates subsection (1), subsection (2), or subsection (3) shall be charged with a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a nonmoving violation as provided in chapter 318. However, the penalty may be reduced if the person committing the violation corrects the violation pursuant to the provisions of s. 316.6105.
(7) The Department of Environmental Protection shall adopt rules that define the specific wording of the required certification and the circumstances under which the certificate is not required. In addition, the department shall adopt rules as necessary to conform to requirements of federal law, to establish procedures to determine compliance with this section, including specifying what tampering activities constitute a violation of this section, and to provide for exceptions and waivers. For those rules applicable pursuant to subsection (1) to licensed motor vehicle dealers for certification by visual observation, the air pollution control devices or systems that shall be included in such certification for motor vehicles dated model year 1981 or later are the catalytic converter, fuel inlet restrictor, unvented fuel cap, exhaust gas recirculation system (EGR), air pump and/or air injector system (AIS), and fuel evaporative emissions system (EVP). The department may by rule remove or add devices or systems to this test if justified by developments in air pollution control technology or changes in federal law.
History.—s. 18, ch. 88-129; s. 5, ch. 89-212; ss. 6, 9, ch. 90-290; s. 5, ch. 93-19; s. 137, ch. 94-356; s. 32, ch. 96-350; s. 206, ch. 99-248; s. 33, ch. 2000-266; s. 2, ch. 2023-186.

 

[Canuckican]

Here is Florida. I also checked Wi. It is illegal to sell a emissions defeated car in both states. Find a better lawyer.

I don't think (or at least hope) I have ever claimed that one of the big problems with this car is that it has been emissions defeated. It has cats, just not the stock ones. Also long tube headers and an MBRP cat-back instead of the 100 percent stock exhaust they verified it has.

However, the evap connections at the 2018 intake manifold were a hack job. The manifold and 47 lb injectors are part of my complaint about never being told the car had been modified to require E85 and the subsequent issues I had after trying to run it on 87 octane. Then removing the 2018 intake only to find that nozzle bouncing around under it. Then finding some cylinders with low compression. All of this is "as-is" stuff.

I fully own me for not doing enough pre-purchase verification of "Mint's" claims and instead relying on "Mint"'s definition of "mint" and "perfect" to be even in the same hemisphere as mine. It still eats at me. I wonder how many other folks have found something like that nozzle under their intake manifold. I hope none!

Regarding this statute: I believe the crux of it is that there are still O2 sensors and two cats installed and visually undamaged. That means by this statute there has been no "tampering". If there were no cats or ones that looked damaged or broken/mission O2 sensors, that's different.

I was asked if as far as I knew, did the car have an exhaust system with no leaks, with O2 sensors and catalytic converters, was there any obvious physical damage to them and were there any emission-related engine codes. I answered it truthfully that I was not aware of any leaks, there were two aftermarket hi-flow catalytic converters with O2 sensors installed upstream and downstream of them and appearing to be connected. This satisfied the part about not being tampered with and also the statutory requirement of (1)(a) and (1)(b) because the cats and O2 sensors are there and visually undamaged. But it doesn't guarantee that they are functional. I did forget to say anything about the pending codes that came up one time because of the long-tube headers. Sounds like that code is a given if you use long tubes.

I've never dealt with lawyers before and was very unsure how to proceed. I'm game for another attempt if I royally messed up this one.

I think the catted mid-pipes are from BBK and they say this about their cats:

 

[Canuckican]

Yeah but hopefully that person will just return it within 7 days. Or it won’t pass inspection and they’ll auction it as a basket case.

Nope, I don't need that bad karma. That's not how my world works.

 

[Canuckican]

Warped heads perhaps, or something is off with the timing.

@Canuckican Any bubbles in the coolant reservoir while the engine is running? Does it overheat? Is the coolant level full and stable?

No bubbles or coolant level issues that I can see. I haven't driven it much but I have not seen any overheating. We have some snow on the ground now but I am still going to drive it as long as I can before taking it off the road for the winter. Other than the Lund log captures, I've been babying it. I'll "give it the beans" next time out, or at least as much as cold pavement on a 28F day allows.

Stuck rings or sticking valves has been offered up as an idea. As has cylinder damage, valve damage caused by the nozzle bouncing around between cylinders under the intake for an unknown length of time, over-boost damage, head gasket damage, warping due to overheating, other malicious causes and voodoo.

 

[Canuckican]

So this lawyer didn't think you had any ground to stand on, on the basis of them selling you a car that cannot pass emissions? or can they do this since it was sold in Florida where there are no emissions?

My takeaway was that the car has cats (aftermarket) and O2 sensors installed and visually undamaged so they do not meet the definition of tampering. As long as they are there and look in good nick, that's all that's needed, no statutory violation. This does not imply any type of warranty that they actually work or will pass emissions.

The main part was about the "as-is" definition and the issues the car had/has. No joy there either.

 

[HKusp]

It's cylinder wall, piston itself, ring, valve damage or a combination of them.

 

[TrevorGT]

I don’t know if I read something or not, but how does it currently run? Any miss, ticks, knocks, using oil??? Is is down on power? Smoking?

 

[jd_cobra]

Nope, I don't need that bad karma. That's not how my world works.

not for nothing but this headache you have on your hands now landed in your lap regardless of how your world supposedly works. It’s life and sometimes shit just happens, unless you feel like it’s karma for something else.

When they auction it, it normally goes to someone who’s got the money for a project anyway.

 

[Canuckican]

It's cylinder wall, piston itself, ring, valve damage or a combination of them.

Yeah, I am really afraid that you are right. It's only the long block that's the problem. The intake, new injectors and new plugs are good to go. Feeble attempt at not dwelling on worst case scenarios...

I was doing some poking around seeing what all needs to come out to pull the heads off. Looks like the header bolts are going to be a real peach. Unless I can disconnect the headers from the mid pipes and remove the heads from the top with the headers still installed. Or fire up the reciprocating saw... heh heh heh. Or remove the entire front clip to get some room to maneuver.

The last cylinder head I removed was from a 1977 Chevy Vega. Those aluminum heads warped so easily and quickly I was able to replace the head in under an hour. Now that car was a real POS. But at least it beat walking, except for the 50 percent of the time it was broken down.

 

[HKusp]

All the accessories on the front of the engine need to come off, ie: the water pump, hoses, pulleys, etc. Then the cam covers(aka valve covers), then the timing cover, then the timing components (cams, tensioners, chains, etc.). WHEN YOU REMOVE THE CAM CAPS KEEP THEM IN ORDER WITH WHICH CAM THEY GO WITH AND WHICH HEAD. This is critical. If you mix them up, and then put the heads back together you will almost certainly have cam failure.

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