BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[GT Pony]

I think you're missing my point. If big end clearance is not causing any wear, then why are the cars quiet when we buy them, then develop a tick thousands of miles later?

If the car is silent when you buy it, then there shouldn't be a clearance issue if that is the cause of the noise. If noise does develop down the road, then there should be obvious signs of wear in order to open up enough to cause some audible impact.

It doesn't make any sense.

Probably because the oil properties are changing. Oil shears down and becomes thinner with mileage. Some oils shear worse than others, and I've seen in UOAs that Motorcraft seems to shear quite a bit. Oil shearing is also a function of how the car is driven - more higher RPM use will shear oil more. That could be why some guys don't hear the ticking until some miles are put on the car.

If an engine starts off quiet but then starts ticking, and then Ceratec is added and almost instantly quiets the ticking, then it has to be oil friction level and cushioning related. Adding 1/2 or 1 300cc bottle (1/3 qt) of Ceratec isn't enough to change the viscosity much at all. What else would explain that phenomenon?

And is the factory oil fill exactly the same formula as what the dealer uses - nobody knows that for sure. Some guys with a mild case of the BBQ tick have cured it with oil thicker than 5W-20, but that hasn't worked for everyone. I think oil formulation might have some factor also - oil with a good level of moly is probably a good thing (less friction).

My theory is cars with excessive rod side clearance came out the factory that way. The side clearance isn't getting greater from wear as the miles are put on the engine. Guys with the BBQ tick either have it or not, and it doesn't seem to get worse or louder with miles on the engine due to increased wear (ie, when using the same oil & no additives) unlike the 2K RPM rattle in the 2018+ Coyote which seems to get worse with miles.

Yes, the BBQ tick is very strange and mysterious.

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[Condor1970]

Probably because the oil properties are changing. Oil shears down and becomes thinner with mileage. Some oils shear worse than others, and I've seen in UOAs that Motorcraft seems to shear quite a bit. Oil shearing is also a function of how the car is driven - more higher RPM use will shear oil more. That could be why some guys don't hear the ticking until some miles are put on the car.

If an engine starts off quiet but then starts ticking, and then Ceratec is added and almost instantly quiets the ticking, then it has to be oil friction level and cushioning related. Adding 1/2 or 1 300cc bottle (1/3 qt) of Ceratec isn't enough to change the viscosity much at all. What else would explain that phenomenon?

And is the factory oil fill exactly the same formula as what the dealer uses - nobody knows that for sure. Some guys with a mild case of the BBQ tick have cured it with oil thicker than 5W-20, but that hasn't worked for everyone. I think oil formulation might have some factor also - oil with a good level of moly is probably a good thing (less friction).

My theory is cars with excessive rod side clearance came out the factory that way. The side clearance isn't getting greater from wear as the miles are put on the engine. Guys with the BBQ tick either have it or not, and it doesn't seem to get worse or louder with miles on the engine due to increased wear (ie, when using the same oil & no additives) unlike the 2K RPM rattle in the 2018+ Coyote which seems to get worse with miles.

Yes, the BBQ tick is very strange and mysterious.

So, if the oil is shearing down and getting worse, why does the tick then show up when you get an oil change with new thicker oil?

And if as you say the clearance is getting worse from wear...then where is wear? It's not there. Nothing visible at all, from what I can see in all these videos and pics.

Also, Blackstone is not showing anything abnormal in the oil samples from these cars. If that much steel was wearing off the sides of big ends, it would be a huge red flag on the Blackstone reports. Yet, nothing.

Some ticking shows up before the first oil change, some after. If the big end clearance is constant from the factory, then it should be ticking the moment it comes from the factory with brand new oil, and go away with new oil after the old stuff shears down. But that's not the case. If anything the tick tends to get worse with new oil, when the carbon from the old oil is removed.

In my case, the tick started before my first oil change. The new oil made it tick the exact SAME. Over time, it got a little less as the oil aged, and not worse. When I did my third oil change, it got really noticeable (with PUP 5w30) until I added 1 bottle of Ceratec, and it vanished. Hasn't been back since started using PUP 5w30, and Ceratec. The boron in the Ceratec is obviously what made the noise go away. So, the whole clearance problem from factory issue is something I just don't buy into. It's something that slowly develops over time from engine wear, regardless of how new or old the oil is. Only super friction modifiers seem to help.

If the tick was big end clearance on mine, then switching to heavier PUP 5w30 should have definitely made it quieter, since it's shear strength is far greater than Motorcraft. Yet, it got even louder. Only the super friction modifiers in Ceratec finally killed the noise.

 

[GT Pony]

And if as you say the clearance is getting worse from wear...then where is wear? It's not there. Nothing visible at all, from what I can see in all these videos and pics.

And if as you say the clearance is getting worse from wear...then where is wear? It's not there. Nothing visible at all, from what I can see in all these videos and pics.

Go back and re-read, I said the wear does not increase, and that's why if all things are kept constant (same oil, no additives), the ticking does not seem to get worse or louder as miles rack up on the engine. If wear was continually going on, then I'd think it would get worse with miles on the engine, yet some F-150 guys claim they've had the BBQ tick for 100,000+ miles and never say it continually gets worse with miles on the vehicle. And if course a UOA won't show any noticable wear because like I've said a few times now I don't think there is any extra wear if the rods dancing side-to-side are causing the BBQ tick.

I've commented probably in this thread and others about why I think some guys have the tick reduce with miles on the oil and then start ticking right after an oil change. It has to do with the anti-wear additive film building up (which reduces friction) as the oil is used, and how new oil strips the anti-wear film off parts, which increases friction again. I think the rods can dance side-to-side if the friction level is relatively high, and if there's excessive clearance then it can cause a ticking noise when the big ends hit each other and/or the sides of the crank journal. That's my theory until other info proves otherwise.

 

[Condor1970]

Go back and re-read, I said the wear doesnt increase and that's why if all things are kept constant (same oil, no additives) the tickink doesn't vseem to get worse or louder. If wear was continually going on, then I'd think it would get worse with miles on the engine, yet some F-150 guys claim they've had the BBQ tick for 100,000+ miles.

I've commented probably in this thread and others about why I think some guys have the tick reduce with miles on the oil and thencstartvticking right after an oil change. It hascto do with the anti-wear additive film building up (which reduces friction) and howvnew oil stripscthecanti-wear film off parts, which increases friction again. I think the rods can dance side to side if the friction level is relatively high, and if there's excessive clearance then it can causeca ticking noise.

So, we are on the same page that this clearance issue is not really changing or getting bigger. That means the clearance problem was from the factory.

From the factory...No tick with fresh oil, and no anti-wear additives built up on the surfaces of a brand new engine. So, how could the clearance problem be from the factory?

Oil ages, and tick starts with original oil, even when slowly building up anti-wear additives on the surfaces. That makes no sense. For those that have no tick with original oil....

...First oil change with superior oil, and higher shear strength, the tick starts (Ok, so the carbon and additives strip away). This makes sense initially.

As oil ages on second oil change, it readily gets quieter as carbon builds up over time in some cases, but not all.

If the source of the noise IS a clearance problem, then it has to be a clearance problem that grows over time, as the tick readily develops with use, and not just from an oil change. Wear should then be visible, and the filters should have evidence of metal, or in the oil samples.

 

[GT Pony]

So, we are on the same page that this clearance issue is not really changing or getting bigger. That means the clearance problem was from the factory.

From the factory...No tick with fresh oil, and no anti-wear additives built up on the surfaces of a brand new engine. So, how could the clearance problem be from the factory!

How do we really know what the formulation of the factory oil is? Couple guys in a diffetent thread were talking about sending some factiry fill oil in for an analysis and compare it to a Motorcraft Synthetic Blend 5W-20 analysis.

Like I mentioned in that thread, maybe the formulation is different, ie, maybe it has way more moly (anti-friction component) in it. Nobody knows until a valid oil analysis test proves or disproves it's the same oil the dealer's use or that it's Motorcraft brand bottled oil for the consumer.

There are still some missing pieces of the puzzle.

 

[Condor1970]

How do we really know what the formulation of the factory oil is? Couple guys in a diffetent thread were talking about sending some factiry fill oil in for an analysis and compare it to a Motircraft 5W-20 analysis.

Like I mentioned in that thread, maybe the formulation is different, ie, maybe it has way more moly (anti-friction component) in it. Nobody knows until a valid test proves or disproves it's the same oil the dealer's use ir that is Motorcraft brand bottled for the consumer.

There are still some missing pieces of the puzzle.

You're right in that regard. If they are adding something, it would be most likely XL-17, since it is just carbon. That carbon would show up only as normal carbon build up in a lab test (perhaps more carbon than usually expected).

If they added anything other, like Moly or Boron in Ceratec, it would pop positive like Barry Bonds after a grand slam.

Again, if they were adding it to all the cars, then why would the tick in some cases, be developing with the original oil?....There would have to be some wear going on somewhere.

 

[GT Pony]

Again, if they were adding it to all the cars, then why would the tick in some cases, be developing with the original oil?....There would have to be some wear going on somewhere.

Hard to say. What some peope think is the BBQ tick might be something else going on. After reading this forum for 4 years it seems there are about 3 or 4 different ticks/knocks/thuds/rattles that these engines can exhibit.

Some guys have reported bad rod bearings (reported by dealer tear down) which might sound somewhat similar, but bearing damage and wear should show in a UOA and give trapped particles in the oil filter if it's bad enough.

If ticking is caused by excessive rod side clearance I don't think there would be any indication of any wear in a UOA. Might be why Ford's SSM about the "typewriter tick" says it won't affect the engine's reliability. Bad rod bearings that eat themselves are a different story, as they will continue to wear and get worse until failure occurs.

 

[accel]

I think you're missing my point. If big end clearance is not causing any wear, then why are the cars quiet when we buy them, then develop a tick thousands of miles

I think side clearance itself is not enough for the tick. If bearing itself is tight it will not let rod slide side to side easy. Once rod bearing "breaks in" it gives rod more freedom to slide end to end.

The thing is... not sure this is side clearance. Tick is slmost identical by pattern between all affected cars.

Now imagine one rod ticks on one engine, and another engine has three ticking rods. They would sure sound differently.

 

[GT Pony]

I think side clearance itself is not enough for the tick. If bearing itself is tight it will not let rod slide side to side easy. Once rod bearing "breaks in" it gives rod more freedom to slide end to end.

The thing is... not sure this is side clearance. Tick is slmost identical by pattern between all affected cars.

Now imagine one rod ticks on one engine, and another engine has three ticking rods. They would sure sound differently.

The BBQ tick seems to be a pretty random pattern, so hard to say how many rods might be causing the ticking pattern. That's why IMO it makes sense that it could be rod side clearance.

 

[Supersolo]

Pistons can only move around in the bore as much as the piston to bore clearance will allow, and what the big end and wrist pin clearance will allow. If the big end and wrist pin clearances are in spec it leaves very little room for the piston to move around about the longitudinally axis of the rod.

If I recall correctly, the guy in the MPR racing video I posted, said tolerances were at the high end of what one would expect to see. Comments also were made about thermal expansion of the block. Furthermore, remarks in the video (@6:40) also suggested bore spacings are "a little off", ie, dimensional accuracy of the machining of the block during manufacture has been found to be out as much as 12 thousandths?

Therefore, imo, as the block expands in a longitudinal direction, taking cylinder bore centres with it, then might the situation arise where any "float" in the big end and the wrist pin, is exceeded, or the rate of expansion of the crank is significantly different to that of the expansion of the block (another reason for longitudinal clearance/float). This happening to a block which has been machined at the high end of the production tolerance may now combine to result in the piston experiencing a force in the direction of the long axis of the wrist pin, resulting in the piston moving out of square in the cylinder. Then during a relatively short time frame the piston wears to the point where it will "slap".

This type of scenario seems to be consistent with why there would be no type writter tick from the factory (not enough wear, since engine assembly) and would also be consistent with the discussion about the gradual degradation of the factory oil and how new 5w20 doesn't seem to correct piston slap, but 5w30, 5w40, is reported to suppress the type writter tick sound, in some cases. In addition, this would also explain the short block replacements.

In summary, I think Ford isn't exercising sufficient manufacturing quality controls, possibly as a result of a cost-based decision (increased quality and dimensional accuracy increases costs), or Ford's calculation for engine replacement costs Vs savings from reduced manufacturing costs, may not be as accurate as Ford had hoped??
Lack of evidence showing the rods hitting each other to the point of causing damge also tells me the type writter tick is not rod to rod or rod to journal contact.
Until further notice, for me, it's piston slap.

 

[Condor1970]

I'm actually reaching a point where I am not so sure it is piston slap or even a big end clearance issue. The fact is, if it is piston slap, the tick sounds like a "one item" noise. Why would only one piston, or only one big end have a tolerance issue? Surely there would readily be more than one in a V8 engine. So, many of the ticks would sound like multiple item ticks. Not a constant single tick that follows rpm with intermittent breaks.
I'm starting to find the piston slap or big end tick a bit hard to believe. If this is a manufacturing issue, I fail to see how thousands of these engines end up with only ONE piston or ONE big end per engine out of tolerance. It just doesn't make sense.

To get that kind of sound, it would need to be a single item, like the oil pump, or possibly the end main bearing on the crank shaft opening up, so the whole crank itself bumps into something in the block somehow. Heck, maybe it really is just an oil cavitation issue. That would explain an awful lot, if true.

 

[ihc95]

From a technical, engineering standpoint, oil cavitation is the only explanation that makes sense.

 

[Condor1970]

From a technical, engineering standpoint, oil cavitation is the only explanation that makes sense.

If that's the case, why would it be quiet when new, then develop after driving for a few thousand miles of use? Then, get even worse with an oil change? It's baffling to me.

 

[ihc95]

If that's the case, why would it be quiet when new, then develop after driving for a few thousand miles of use? Then, get even worse with an oil change? It's baffling to me.

Because oil properties are constantly changing and are a product of many things including mileage and temperature. It's not baffling at all honestly.

 

[accel]

From a technical, engineering standpoint, oil cavitation is the only explanation that makes sense.

Waterpump cavitation sound.



And here they say cavitation is destructive

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