Single top mount turbo - Supporting mods

[NGOT8R]

Also I was re reading and you need to give up on 850 on 93, 93 can barely support 700 regardless of what you read in this forum.

Honestly you should just but a G3r or a g4 and eliminate a massive amount of headache

Thanks for the info.! I honestly don’t know what the power limits are for 93 fuel, but whatever the tuner says they are, I’ll be fine with it. Max effort will only be when racing with boost only or boost/nitrous and it will be done on E85.

I don’t expect this to be an easy undertaking, but I’m not afraid of the challenge. I’ve always wanted a turbo car, as it’s the only power adder that I haven’t tried yet.

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[wingnutt]

I’m gonna agree with the overall sentiment…there are proven kits out there that are just bolt on, and will get you there with FAR less headache and cash outlay.

unless you’re just a glutton for punishment, and have the time, wallet and patience to go down the single turbo road

 

[robvas]

I’m not sure about that, but I’ll surely look into it to see which turbo would best suit my needs.

 

[NGOT8R]

I’m gonna agree with the overall sentiment…there are proven kits out there that are just bolt on, and will get you there with FAR less headache and cash outlay.

unless you’re just a glutton for punishment, and have the time, wallet and patience to go down the single turbo road

I agree that there are several options available that would help me to arrive at the same power goal.

I wouldn’t say I’m a glutton for punishment, or that I have unlimited funds, but I do believe I have the time and patience to perform the install.

I’ll be approaching this in stages and purchasing sections of the kit at a time until I have the entire kit in hand. Doing it this way helps keeps me honest with my spending.

 

[wingnutt]

I wouldn’t say I’m a glutton for punishment, or that I have unlimited funds, but I do believe I have the time and patience to perform the install.

 

[Wolfys11]

Thanks for the info.! I honestly don’t know what the power limits are for 93 fuel, but whatever the tuner says they are, I’ll be fine with it. Max effort will only be when racing with boost only or boost/nitrous and it will be done on E85.

I don’t expect this to be an easy undertaking, but I’m not afraid of the challenge. I’ve always wanted a turbo car, as it’s the only power adder that I haven’t tried yet.

The max ive heard is 800 on pump gas, but you also have nitro which will bump your limits

 

[Wolfys11]

I agree that there are several options available that would help me to arrive at the same power goal.

I wouldn’t say I’m a glutton for punishment, or that I have unlimited funds, but I do believe I have the time and patience to perform the install.

I’ll be approaching this in stages and purchasing sections of the kit at a time until I have the entire kit in hand. Doing it this way helps keeps me honest with my spending.

Do the power adder you love, i went ess but if i ever get a good opportunity i would love a hellion twin turbo top mount, the looks and noises

 

[Angrey]

I think you should frame the setup and then between you and the tuner you will get what eventually the setup will make SAFELY and reliably on a given fuel.

The problem with these rules of thumbs and values that are thrown around is that so many people lie, so many people set their cars up to be dyno heroes and get that marketing magical pull, so many people dope fuel (and call it 93, but it's full of deer antler powder and pangolin juice) etc.

The bottom line is that there are few mystery tricks remaining on our platform. If you have 308 cubic inches with a given bore/stroke/volume at a given compression, the market has already determined where the BMEP is appropriate on a given fuel. So whether it's twins, big single, PD, centri, whatevs, each system is gonna run into borderline knock around the same tight range area. (setting aside any atypical supporting systems like an interchiller).

So pick your poison, build it and then you can decide how much you wanna press the edge on how much it makes. But .82 lambda on max borderline spark and true 93 is gonna put you squarely in the same range as virtually every other build. How good the lungs are (intake, TB, heads, headers, exhaust) will move the needle a LITTLE bit but have more of an effect on how much boost pressure it takes to get you to borderline.

As we've discussed in other threads (and this one), if you're hell bent on a big single, just be prepared to either A) Operate it accordingly or B) employ something like an anti-lag.

Big single says "racecar" to a lot of people for a reason. Single turbos take longer to spool for a comparative output than twins. They just do. It's the entire reason the automative industry migrated to them in the first place. Again, that can be mitigated so long as you know you may have to get your foot further in it to get it to respond how you want OR you run an anti-lag. We can discuss the pros and drawbacks of anti lag elsewhere.

Top mount twins do take up more real estate and are a little bit more complicated. Big single on the top side is only slightly more complicated than a centri. But your not going to get seat of your pants torque in the lower rpm range with it.

Lastly, the whole thing gets complicated further with your nitrous and how you intend to use that. You could bring the nitrous in early (as a boost spool and toque filler) or you could bring it on late (as a thermal advantage for getting more power out of pump 93 fuel).

 

[NGOT8R]

I think you should frame the setup and then between you and the tuner you will get what eventually the setup will make SAFELY and reliably on a given fuel.

The problem with these rules of thumbs and values that are thrown around is that so many people lie, so many people set their cars up to be dyno heroes and get that marketing magical pull, so many people dope fuel (and call it 93, but it's full of deer antler powder and pangolin juice) etc.

The bottom line is that there are few mystery tricks remaining on our platform. If you have 308 cubic inches with a given bore/stroke/volume at a given compression, the market has already determined where the BMEP is appropriate on a given fuel. So whether it's twins, big single, PD, centri, whatevs, each system is gonna run into borderline knock around the same tight range area. (setting aside any atypical supporting systems like an interchiller).

So pick your poison, build it and then you can decide how much you wanna press the edge on how much it makes. But .82 lambda on max borderline spark and true 93 is gonna put you squarely in the same range as virtually every other build. How good the lungs are (intake, TB, heads, headers, exhaust) will move the needle a LITTLE bit but have more of an effect on how much boost pressure it takes to get you to borderline.

As we've discussed in other threads (and this one), if you're hell bent on a big single, just be prepared to either A) Operate it accordingly or B) employ something like an anti-lag.

Big single says "racecar" to a lot of people for a reason. Single turbos take longer to spool for a comparative output than twins. They just do. It's the entire reason the automative industry migrated to them in the first place. Again, that can be mitigated so long as you know you may have to get your foot further in it to get it to respond how you want OR you run an anti-lag. We can discuss the pros and drawbacks of anti lag elsewhere.

Top mount twins do take up more real estate and are a little bit more complicated. Big single on the top side is only slightly more complicated than a centri. But your not going to get seat of your pants torque in the lower rpm range with it.

Lastly, the whole thing gets complicated further with your nitrous and how you intend to use that. You could bring the nitrous in early (as a boost spool and toque filler) or you could bring it on late (as a thermal advantage for getting more power out of pump 93 fuel).

Lots of great info.! Thanks so much for that! I’m a ways off from acquiring everything, but I’m going to stay on it, until I have everything needed in hand. I’ve got a lot to learn and look forward to the challenge.

 

[Timbuck]

Yes. so Many people believe A single is laggy as hell , but if done right and matched with the power level you want they can be very responsive.

 

[Timbuck]

This article from Garrett sure peaked my interest on a single turbo set up for mine.


https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/...t-jonathan-hurst-gtx4202r-vs-gtx3582r-gen-ii/

 

[Angrey]

This article from Garrett sure peaked my interest on a single turbo set up for mine.


https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/...t-jonathan-hurst-gtx4202r-vs-gtx3582r-gen-ii/

Please tell me we're not going to have this debate/discussion. It's already settled law. When comparing PROPERLY sized turbos, given the sheer constraints of mathematics (and the volume and area calculations for a circular assembly) and combined with the natural and unavoidable compressor curves for a turbine, twins will spool faster and make better responsiveness than a single. Again, the marketplace isn't just all wrong (and someone else has the magical unicorn solution). There's a reason that MOST (if not all) OEM's who feature turbochargers do so now in a twin configuration or if there are legacy arrangements, they're usually compound (i.e. a big and a little in series).

A big turbo that takes longer to spool is no big deal if A) It's a race car and you're only asking it to live in the high rpm range between gears anyway B) You employ a means of pre-spooling, like nitrous or antilag, C) You actually PREFER it to be gentrified at lower rpms and drive very docile and not get crazy until you really ask for it.

This is all negated a bit with a 10 speed depending on how the shift strategies are setup.

A big single is a simpler build, ESPECIALLY if you have to relocate the PCM and do any real estate clearing of the front passenger engine bay area. But let's not get it twisted, there IS a tradeoff with a big single and that's lag. Lag can be managed on a big single, but that also comes with additional complexities and tradeoffs.

When properly sized, a set of twins will spool quicker. It's just math. You can get them into their optimal compressor curve faster because the overall cross sectional area of two smaller turbines (compared to one larger unit) gets into appropriate blower speeds sooner.

 

[NGOT8R]

I‘ve been researching turbos a bit today and see where some people can combat lag by porting the turbo volute. This may be accomplished via the Extrude Hone process. See videos below.



I can see that this has the potential to become crazy expensive. When the time comes, I am going to strongly consider having the turbo and Holley Low Ram intake manifold Extrude Honed, provided it’s not too expensive and risky from residual media material left behind in the turbo.



In addition, I will need to have the cold side piping cut and V-band flanges welded in for the Nitrous Outlet’s Interspooler setup.

 

[robvas]

Please tell me we're not going to have this debate/discussion. It's already settled law. When comparing PROPERLY sized turbos, given the sheer constraints of mathematics (and the volume and area calculations for a circular assembly) and combined with the natural and unavoidable compressor curves for a turbine, twins will spool faster and make better responsiveness than a single. Again, the marketplace isn't just all wrong (and someone else has the magical unicorn solution). There's a reason that MOST (if not all) OEM's who feature turbochargers do so now in a twin configuration or if there are legacy arrangements, they're usually compound (i.e. a big and a little in series).

A lot of have people have shown the opposite as well.

The OEM market does twins because of packaging. Not a lot of room for a huge single turbo and a 5" exhaust on a modern car. But there are still quite a few single turbo kits out there for Mustangs

It's not really a fair comparison but diesel trucks are all single turbo, they have all the room in the world to work with.

 

[Cordero1]

I was considering going the CX racing route. But I don't know enough about turbos to completely plan out the whole kit. Hellion keeps calling my attention. Was really set on ESS, but for the price of a G3X with G4 IC your already on the toes of Hellion prices. Big single is a good way to go. I just don't want to mess with a/c lines or wire tucking.

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