IRS and drag racing

[EXP Jawa]

Lol, that is pretty funny and understandable. Many of those SUVs my guess is front wheel drive for some, maybe some AWD, and RWD. Either way even at AWD and 4x4 people are living in expectations that overall an SUV will handle better but in most if not all the cases it's actually the driver at fault expecting the better handling and not actually feeling a part of their vehicle... you know, knowing your ride and its maximum capability, tires also have a major factor in it. I like to push all my vehicles to my comfortable limits and not actually the vehicles. The fun comes out when you are letting your ride drift That I do alot of in my truck in rwd on good days and 4x4 on those bad ones (within reason) lol

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Well, when it comes down to it, 4WD/AWD aids acceleration. It does nothing for braking and cornering, as the vehicle has 4-wheel brakes and tires regardless. Most people don't think about this, they simply feel invulnerable since they can accelerate - at least until they crash. But that's why proper tires are the key...

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[w3rkn]

Not according to this... http://www.tirechainsrus.com/tire-chains-laws.html ... which states 48 of 51(including D.C.) do allow the use of chains or studs or both, including WI, or have no law regarding snow equipment, such as FL or Hawaii.

As for why they'd offer a vehicle you can drive year round, they know that if you drive it more in adverse condition, it will wear out more quickly and you will be more likely to purchase a new car more often. Auto sales 101.

Chains are illegal in Michigan..

 

[Seabee1973]

Well, when it comes down to it, 4WD/AWD aids acceleration. It does nothing for braking and cornering, as the vehicle has 4-wheel brakes and tires regardless. Most people don't think about this, they simply feel invulnerable since they can accelerate - at least until they crash. But that's why proper tires are the key...

Agreed! & better drivers too...:-) thing is in alot of snow or ice or even snow pack, I don't often use the brakes until at a reasonable controllable speed best slowdowns are turning off the od and shifting down on the autos and our the manuals. My truck doesn't even have all that fancy esp or stabiltrac on the newer f150s though I do have that on the audi though it is awd it's not 100% torque is delivered to the wheels differently but most of the time it's actually fwd until it detects slippage at the front where it shifts power to the rear wheels even up to 100% actually drove perfectly fine using my summers bridgestone re750s on the audi..... on the truck I used to have the Bridgestone Revo2 but have switched over to general grabber at2s. They are amazing and hopefully will outlast the revo2, the summers here seemed to kill the life of the tire and me driving agressive is obviously of no help.lol

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[Rob WH]

Chains are illegal in Michigan..

http://law.onecle.com/michigan/257-motor-vehicles/mcl-257-710.html
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-52374-205115--F,00.html

Section "B" says otherwise... but that's only Michigan law, so... maybe you just wrote a new one and the state is unaware...

Guys/gals... PLEASE look up the law in your state because, honestly, I don't really want to do it for you any more than I want misinformation on the superhighway. :clap2:

 

[Rob WH]

True but in order to out perform the out going model in the quarter mile or a laguna Seca that doesn't have a backseat and stripped down IRS Alone won't do it especially with weight gain so naturally it will need more than just 10 to 15 additional HP

IRS alone won't, even stripped out... but it has plenty more than that, like larger tires all around and MASSIVELY larger brakes and those, coupled w/ the other 2, will indeed do it even w/o more power. Look at the Camaro 1LE. It beat the BOSS w/ just 6hp more, albeit certainly better power under the curve. The 1LE weighs like 200-250 more than the GT.

Just look above at the link posted that my post was quoted in. There's no need to get testy buddy this is my opinion. That's why it's called a guess. But when the numbers are announced and "Hell freezes over" remember who said it first

I wasn't being testy... I was LAUGHING MY ASS OFF! :lol:

Btw, more than 450 was said long ago... I just don't expect it to be that high.

Not necessarily. Its not always about the most power on the dragstrip. Oh it helps for sure. But it can be HOW that HP/TQ is put down. I have beaten my fair share of cars at my local 1/8 mile track that on paper have bigger HP numbers but be it the driver or how the vehicle puts its power down has made all the difference in those races.

The S550 may very well get better traction, transfer weight better and shift more quickly and have more area under the curve down the dragstrip. Hence it could only have a small HP/TQ bump and still nip the outgoing 2014 GT at the strip. Just a thought.

This could indeed happen... I don't think it will, but it could. It's REALLY hard to beat SLA with IRS at a drag strip. If these cars have similar tq numbers, even with a 30hp gain, the 15 will struggle, at best, against the 14 there, but on the road course, I see this quickly being called a "LIGHTS OUT" for the 14 contest. I just believe the new one will have such better balance and braking, it's going to beat the old handily, except in straight line racing. From a roll, this may favor the 15 all over again... it's all hard to say in that regard.

 

[Grimace427]

Look at the Camaro 1LE. It beat the BOSS w/ just 6hp more, albeit certainly better power under the curve. The 1LE weighs like 200-250 more than the GT.

The 1LE had 6hp more than the GT but 18hp less than the Boss.

This could indeed happen... I don't think it will, but it could. It's REALLY hard to beat SLA with IRS at a drag strip. If these cars have similar tq numbers, even with a 30hp gain, the 15 will struggle, at best, against the 14 there,....

Stock for stock(which is the only way magazines test cars) the IRS would easily beat the SRA on the drag strip. The SRA puts all of the acceleration forces through only 3 control arms with soft rubber bushings. IRS distributes the same load through double the control arms which not only reduces the deflection of each bushing but also allows the engineering design team to better manage the direction of those loads to plant the tires on the road for maximum grip at launch.

 

[Rob WH]

The 1LE had 6hp more than the GT but 18hp less than the Boss.

Correct! I meant to say 6 more than the GT, to illustrate the difference... then I forgot part! :doh:

Stock for stock(which is the only way magazines test cars) the IRS would easily beat the SRA on the drag strip. The SRA puts all of the acceleration forces through only 3 control arms with soft rubber bushings. IRS distributes the same load through double the control arms which not only reduces the deflection of each bushing but also allows the engineering design team to better manage the direction of those loads to plant the tires on the road for maximum grip at launch.

IRS has never been able to beat SLR/SRA at the drag strip, ever. It's not just about how it's held together, but the fact it stays together that makes the difference.

More moving parts only provides more to break. Wheel hop issues will ensue and as always, the task will require getting more weight rolling and that's never an advantage. If IRS was actually better at the drag strip, nobody in the Cobra world would've swapped back to SLA and the Mach1 as well as GT500's would all have gotten IRS too. This particular subjust simply isn't debatable as far as I can see... I just can't be taught on this one because I've seen too many people insist on SLA at the drag strip forever.

It's important also to consider, at least in my opinion, the average drag racer isn't going in planning for all stock and even if initially doing so, won't go w/o sticky tires for the duration.

 

[Seabee1973]

Correct! I meant to say 6 more than the GT, to illustrate the difference... then I forgot part! :doh:

IRS has never been able to beat SLR/SRA at the drag strip, ever. It's not just about how it's held together, but the fact it stays together that makes the difference.

More moving parts only provides more to break. Wheel hop issues will ensue and as always, the task will require getting more weight rolling and that's never an advantage. If IRS was actually better at the drag strip, nobody in the Cobra world would've swapped back to SLA and the Mach1 as well as GT500's would all have gotten IRS too. This particular subjust simply isn't debatable as far as I can see... I just can't be taught on this one because I've seen too many people insist on SLA at the drag strip forever.

It's important also to consider, at least in my opinion, the average drag racer isn't going in planning for all stock and even if initially doing so, won't go w/o sticky tires for the duration.

so what is going to happen when you pit the S197 against the S550 both stock performance packages, let's say one was actually heavier (S550) than the other and the S550 winds up winning... what will you say after that?????

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[Tony Alonso]

IRS has never been able to beat SLR/SRA at the drag strip, ever. It's not just about how it's held together, but the fact it stays together that makes the difference.

Are you speaking about Mustangs of past only?

More moving parts only provides more to break. Wheel hop issues will ensue and as always, the task will require getting more weight rolling and that's never an advantage. If IRS was actually better at the drag strip, nobody in the Cobra world would've swapped back to SLA and the Mach1 as well as GT500's would all have gotten IRS too. This particular subjust simply isn't debatable as far as I can see... I just can't be taught on this one because I've seen too many people insist on SLA at the drag strip forever.

For a higher (400+) power levels in the SN-95s, I would agree that the popular choice for eliminating the movement would be a solid rear axle. The chassis design was done back in the early 90s. The forces loading on it seemed to be much more that what the original design could handle. Amazing how many times I heard about people welding the toque boxes in back too. I suspect you are probably aware of this.

It's important also to consider, at least in my opinion, the average drag racer isn't going in planning for all stock and even if initially doing so, won't go w/o sticky tires for the duration.

Yes, the drag racer that will increase the power over the stock levels in the current car with stick tires will face an untested (in the customer world) set-up. It is my opinion that a GT left at the delivered power levels will have a solid foundation, otherwise we would have probably not got a line lock feature.

 

[Rob WH]

so what is going to happen when you pit the S197 against the S550 both stock performance packages, let's say one was actually heavier (S550) than the other and the S550 winds up winning... what will you say after that?????

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If that happens I'll look into the hp and tq numbers, like any drag racer would.

Expecting it to, I think basically amounts to pissing into the wind. I have no interest in another pissing contest over how great the IRS is... Wait and see.

 

[Grimace427]

IRS has never been able to beat SLR/SRA at the drag strip, ever.

What's the best bone stock 60' of an S197 Mustang? 1.9x? Not that great IMO. The quickest bone-stock E55 AMG ran 1.71 60' through 265 street tires. Two tenths of a second at launch is not nothing and it was all due to suspension.

More moving parts only provides more to break. Wheel hop issues will ensue and as always, the task will require getting more weight rolling and that's never an advantage. If IRS was actually better at the drag strip, nobody in the Cobra world would've swapped back to SLA and the Mach1 as well as GT500's would all have gotten IRS too. This particular subjust simply isn't debatable as far as I can see... I just can't be taught on this one because I've seen too many people insist on SLA at the drag strip forever.

The IRS in the '99-04 Cobra sucked and has no part in the design of the 2015 Mustang's suspension. The SRA in the S197 was great but only after a number of upgrades were done. Buying an S197 practically requires several upgrades(UCA/LCA, relo brackets) for optimum performance, then when things get serious with sticky tires the axle tubes need to be welded.

It's important also to consider, at least in my opinion, the average drag racer isn't going in planning for all stock and even if initially doing so, won't go w/o sticky tires for the duration.

It's also important to consider people aren't buying a $40,000 car for the sole purpose of being a competitive drag racer. Those who are are more than capable of making the IRS work and work well on the strip and are likely the performance shops developing the parts we consumers use to upgrade our personal cars.

 

[Free Agent]

This one is for Rob WH (and everyone really)…


http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f144/2016-camaro-planned-engine-line-up-170233/

2016 Camaro Planned Engine Line Up.
1) 2.0T

2) LGX V6

3) LT1

4) LT4

 

[Rob WH]

What's the best bone stock 60' of an S197 Mustang? 1.9x? Not that great IMO. The quickest bone-stock E55 AMG ran 1.71 60' through 265 street tires. Two tenths of a second at launch is not nothing and it was all due to suspension.

There's a video on the net of a 2011 Mustang GT with 1 mod... Hoosiers. It grabbed a 1.628 short time. We'll have to wait and see if the new system can withstand that abuse. The quickest AMG E55 has nothing to do with this... You're seriously attempting to have me consider the comparison of a $75,000 starting price car against a $35,000 starting price car? LUDICROUS!

FYI, the E55 isn't just entirely different, it also happened to have a supercharged engine making over 500ft-lb torque, which makes comparing it to any new 5L Mustang just ridiculous. Besides, we simply don't know how well the new Mustang will perform, all stock. We just know that people will not leave them all stock.

The IRS in the '99-04 Cobra sucked and has no part in the design of the 2015 Mustang's suspension. The SRA in the S197 was great but only after a number of upgrades were done. Buying an S197 practically requires several upgrades(UCA/LCA, relo brackets) for optimum performance, then when things get serious with sticky tires the axle tubes need to be welded.

When the same circumstances are met with the IRS, it will probably cost a great deal more to upgrade, or simply fail outright because it cannot be made strong enough. That's the actual reason IRS isn't used in serious drag race builds in general. It's made for comfort... period.

It's also important to consider people aren't buying a $40,000 car for the sole purpose of being a competitive drag racer. Those who are are more than capable of making the IRS work and work well on the strip and are likely the performance shops developing the parts we consumers use to upgrade our personal cars.

Yet you have no trouble trying to get me to compare that 40k car to a 75k car?? That said, plenty more people who buy Mustangs drag race them than any other kind of racing. That's just how it is and has been since the 1980's, at least. Mustangs have been successful in SCCA, etc. along the way, without IRS. I think Mustangs won 2 class championships in SCCA last season... Camaro's and Challengers won 0.

Most people who drag race Mustangs are still 100% oblivious to IRS in drag racing. I've considered going back to work, specifically to work with upgrading the Mustang IRS because I know it's going to make some very wealthy, though I didn't retire young because I care about money, so I haven't decided to do it. The real concern I have in upgrades isn't about me anyway, it's whether or not people are going to be able to spend more for the car and more for the upgrades... many will have to wait. Most Mustang buyers would love to add a centrifugal s/c or a great turbo system, but can't afford that on top of the new car as it is. That's my only problem with IRS. I don't even care that it's not as good for drag racing on my personal level. I don't really race at all anymore due to old injuries. It's going to be expensive. The reason I don't really want it in Mustangs though, is abut that and the fact, Mustangs weren't ever meant to be comfortable... till now, apparently, in our recently coddled America. That part is kinda frustrating. I liked it in my Explorer... because that thing can beat you up and was built to be comfortable in its case(Eddie Bauer). I like it in my Escape too, though it's nowhere near as comfortable as the Explorer, let alone as quiet concerning road noise.

I'm going to retract my previous euphoric guesses and come back to reality, as my previous guess was a very enthusiastic and hopeful one.

No less than 440hp and no more than 450hp. For TQ, I can see 400 minimum being a goal of Ford's. Anything more than 410 tq might be a stretch though.

That's plenty reasonable. I could see numbers way up there, but for me, 435-450hp is reasonable and I believe, like many, expecting more than 410tq just may be a really, really big stretch. The DOHC in N/A form simply isn't conducive to big torque numbers unless it's also a big cube engine.

The 6.2L is a good example where we can see differences, though it's only a 2V. 1.2L more engine and the torque is still only... only 434 from Ford. Expecting those numbers from a 5L is asking way too much impo. These engines, as we've known for 30yrs, are great for building power, but they work best when a positive displacement blower or turbocharger is added... that's the beauty of them to me, seeing how they respond to mods.

 

[scottpe]

I don't think you guys are debating the same things here. Grimace, I believe is making the point that the IRS may very well be superior to the SRA at putting the power to the ground. I think it's a very reasonable point, and I suspect it could true.

Rob, your argument seems to be more from the perspective of serious drag racers, and that the SRA is more durable and cheaper to maintain. Obviously we don't know what the limits to this new IRS are, but the fact that Ford has included a LINE LOCK as standard equipment may at least give us a hint that there is some durability there.

That said, you are probably right. An SRA will probably stand up to the abuse of big horsepower and slicks better, and thus will probably be better for serious drag racing. Fortunately, I think there will an SRA package available in the aftermarket. Sure it's a pain to have to swap out the rear suspension. But hey, you gotta pay to play. Ford has to do what appeals to the masses, especially given the car's new world market. Drag racing isn't as important to the rest of the world as it is to (some) American enthusiasts.

Everyone will adapt to the changes, and I have a feeling when the dust settles, the new suspension will be considered a successful move overall.

Also, I think saying that IRS is strictly for comfort is a bit of an oversimplification.

But I digress. This is not the chassis/suspension part of the forum. We're supposed to be talking about the motor here...

 

[Rob WH]

This one is for Rob WH (and everyone really)…

1) 2.0T
2) LGX V6
3) LT1
4) LT4

Sounds like they intend to power things well. Apparently, the LT4 will be Z/28 power, but I'd personally expect that for the ZL1 instead(unless ZL1 is dropped and Z/28 takes its place) and they said the 2L will be standard, like ATS and CTS it seems. We will now just have to wait and see the vehicle weight and whether or not they lower the power on the V8's(if it really is built lightweight).

PS I almost missed this because I stepped out with the dogs and came back and realized I hadn't sent... then by chance just scrolled up... Good info to have, so thanks. Oh, and we're all :threadjacked: again!

I don't think you guys are debating the same things here. Grimace, I believe is making the point that the IRS may very well be superior to the SRA at putting the power to the ground. I think it's a very reasonable point, and I suspect it could true.

Rob, your argument seems to be more from the perspective of serious drag racers, and that the SRA is more durable and cheaper to maintain. Obviously we don't know what the limits to this new IRS are, but the fact that Ford has included a LINE LOCK as standard equipment may at least give us a hint that there is some durability there.

That said, you are probably right. An SRA will probably stand up to the abuse of big horsepower and slicks better, and thus will probably be better for serious drag racing. Fortunately, I think there will an SRA package available in the aftermarket. Sure it's a pain to have to swap out the rear suspension. But hey, you gotta pay to play. Ford has to do what appeals to the masses, especially given the car's new world market. Drag racing isn't as important to the rest of the world as it is to (some) American enthusiasts.

Everyone will adapt to the changes, and I have a feeling when the dust settles, the new suspension will be considered a successful move overall.

For all I know, Ford went with line lock because they figured it could help burnouts and thus, reduce wheel hop... :shrug:

I'm not actually thinking of big power stuff(though it will surely become a bigger concern)... I've seen less than 400hp break axles, that's for sure. The IRS will be successful, period. It will not, however, be as capable of handling abuse overall. I only wonder how much line lock might be necessary...

IRS was implemented for comfort and(and some think, safety to a degree) not by any means for drag racing. In fact, I think comfort was the only original intent and that it seems to offer better grip by keeping more tires planted over bumps was simply a bonus we learned along the way.

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