"expected" weight gain

[Tony Alonso]

I have a heavy car (Mazdaspeed6) and I used to drive a light car (Civic) My heavy car is much faster and a better performer than the light car. But whenever I go back to that Civic, I remember how fun it is throwing a light, small car around. That's why I'm waiting until the HiPo/Halo cars are announced before I make a final decision. Plus, at that point several years from now, there appears to be a couple interesting additions to the affordable sports car segment.

I'd call your Mazdaspeed 6 a "light car", based on what I am used to driving

I think it might be difficult to replicate a Civic-type of experience in this one. Sight lines and seating position are likely to be different just because of the physical size. That said, I would expect the driving experience in this new car to be satisfying because of the anti-dive/squat improvements from the redesigned suspension. The steering response is another variable, especially with the multiple driving modes that will affect it and the throttle response.

There are some cars out there that weigh over 4000lbs (Bentley Continental GT, Mercedes SL65 AMG Black Series) characterized by the auto reviewers as driving "smaller" than they are sized. I personally look at more than just curb weight to evaluate the experience, although it certainly plays a big role.

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[m4a1mustang]

I've driven one. My buddy has one, he can fit all of his hockey equipment in it including sticks, and still have two people sitting, which is better than his previous S2000 where the passenger had to share the seat with the sticks. Great car, useless for me.

Haha I hear you on the s2000. I could never take that car fishing.

 

[Whiskey11]

So what if it gains weight, the GT is gonna beat the Boss 302 at the track for over $10k less. What else can you ask for?

So what? Well, the what is that the car has more weight to transfer side to side and fore and aft which means stiffer springs, but more importantly it means LOWER grip while cornering as the weight over powers the tires. It also means the car is harder on brake pads and rotors and harder on gas. I don't want a 3700lb car, I want a 3200lb car or less, preferably less.

 

[Tony Alonso]

So what? Well, the what is that the car has more weight to transfer side to side and fore and aft which means stiffer springs, but more importantly it means LOWER grip while cornering as the weight over powers the tires. It also means the car is harder on brake pads and rotors and harder on gas. I don't want a 3700lb car, I want a 3200lb car or less, preferably less.

The new C7 Corvette with the Z51 option is acknowledged as a superb handler and it is at 3400+lbs for a 2-seat coupe. Part of that weight is attributed to the e-differential, which along with the tires and suspension tuning and electronic driver assists, is what facilitates the performance.

I agree that less weight, as a principle, is better, but when it comes to street cars driven on a race track, I think there are other factors that will influence the grip. We currently don't know how the selectable driver modes might affect handling, especially with summer Pirellis that look to be installed.

A street car has many conflicting constraints against which to optimize, hence the GT Performance Pack, for example, for those inclined to drive more at limit on road courses.

I am currently anticipating some sort of weight gain that hopefully has been offset by the use of aluminum and some shrinkage of the sheet metal over the current cars. My novice prediction is that we will see between 3650 and 3700lbs for a fully loaded car. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Whiskey11]

The new C7 Corvette with the Z51 option is acknowledged as a superb handler and it is at 3400+lbs for a 2-seat coupe. Part of that weight is attributed to the e-differential, which along with the tires and suspension tuning and electronic driver assists, is what facilitates the performance.

I agree that less weight, as a principle, is better, but when it comes to street cars driven on a race track, I think there are other factors that will influence the grip. We currently don't know how the selectable driver modes might affect handling, especially with summer Pirellis that look to be installed.

A street car has many conflicting constraints against which to optimize, hence the GT Performance Pack, for example, for those inclined to drive more at limit on road courses.

I am currently anticipating some sort of weight gain that hopefully has been offset by the use of aluminum and some shrinkage of the sheet metal over the current cars. My novice prediction is that we will see between 3650 and 3700lbs for a fully loaded car. I hope I am wrong.

Would a C7 Corvette not be faster at 3000lbs than at 3450lbs? I'm sure it will, and while you can bandaid that chassis with a number of other things to help minimize the weight's impact it will never be faster than a significantly lighter version of the same car.

Half the reason brake pads and rotors have gotten larger over the years in track environments is because of the increases in weight from various "safety" features. Look at the BRZ for instance, at 2700lbs it doesn't need 15" brakes with 6 pot calipers to brake well on a road course, nor does it need 19"/20" wheels to clear those brakes.

I also hope you are very, very wrong about the weight of the new cars. Ford will be shooting themselves in the foot if they do not drop weight from the Mustang. The EB4 will be a turd in a 3500lb car...

 

[SStormtrooPer]

It is amazing to me how many people just can't accept that some of us want a lighter car.

The excuse/argument that it handles better than the current car is such a cop-out. That is the kind of customer attitude that gives Ford ZERO motivation to make it lighter. We get it. Some of us just want a pure driving experience. One that is not artificially created by gadgetry and engineering designed to overcome bloat. Think of how much better this car COULD be.

Its pretty sad when a loaded, optioned out, top of the line, 4 door, 2014 Camry is 200lbs. lighter than a 2014 GT, no?

 

[Tony Alonso]

It is amazing to me how many people just can't accept that some of us want a lighter car.

I certainly understand why a lighter car is desired by some people. From a purely dynamic standpoint, of course it makes perfect sense.

The excuse/argument that it handles better than the current car is such a cop-out. That is the kind of customer attitude that gives Ford ZERO motivation to make it lighter. We get it. Some of us just want a pure driving experience. One that is not artificially created by gadgetry and engineering designed to overcome bloat. Think of how much better this car COULD be.

Market forces being what they are, I cannot imagine shrinking the Mustang down by chopping inches out of the wheelbase to cut hundreds of pounds out of the car. Also, I would not characterize the "gadgetry and engineering" as what is done to overcome bloat. I think it is market forces that drive the addition of these items. Some people will think they take away from the experience, some will think they add something, some won't care.

Its pretty sad when a loaded, optioned out, top of the line, 4 door, 2014 Camry is 200lbs. lighter than a 2014 GT, no?

But it won't dynamically outhandle the Mustang on a road course, no?

 

[m4a1mustang]

Well I can tell you that if the Mustang gains weight I probably won't be interested.

 

[Tony Alonso]

Would a C7 Corvette not be faster at 3000lbs than at 3450lbs? I'm sure it will, and while you can bandaid that chassis with a number of other things to help minimize the weight's impact it will never be faster than a significantly lighter version of the same car.

The chassis re-design was optimized with not only weight but strength in mind. Pushing huge amounts of power from a pumped-up engine, meeting crash regulations, and allowing for a convertible without adding bracing are likely all requirements that have been carefully balanced, driving what looks to be a very eloquent starting point. I often heard my friends who work at Ford talk about how much of balancing act they must achieve to get their product to market. Personally, when Ferrari dumped the manual transmissions in their cars, I shed a tear. However, it's hard to argue with lap times and getting power down to the ground with some of the aids that are popular today.

Half the reason brake pads and rotors have gotten larger over the years in track environments is because of the increases in weight from various "safety" features. Look at the BRZ for instance, at 2700lbs it doesn't need 15" brakes with 6 pot calipers to brake well on a road course, nor does it need 19"/20" wheels to clear those brakes.

Yes, understood - awesomely fun to drive, but I would argue the larger demographic of the Mustang buyer would not consider a 2700lb Mustang with that power level a "real Mustang". Having driven the first generation Miata many moons ago, I definitely understand the appeal and the way the driving experience would be with a much lighter car balanced against smaller tires and brakes.

I also hope you are very, very wrong about the weight of the new cars. Ford will be shooting themselves in the foot if they do not drop weight from the Mustang. The EB4 will be a turd in a 3500lb car...

I have a 2010 GT now which is about the same weight (just under 3600lb) and has about the same output (315hp/325ft-lb). The torque is nice around town. Of course, it doesn't compare to the 5.0L, but I actually think if the Mustang does NOT go up to around 3700lbs, then it would be acceptable. Otherwise, I do agree that it might feel underpowered to some.

 

[DHG1078]

lets not forget the seats alone in the C7 weigh significantly more than in the C6. One of the things they focused on was a more livable interior. Creature comforts and tech all add weight unfortunately. Basic Spartan interiors with a/c, radio, and nothing else are no longer feasible in todays market. And like Tony said, the car has to be able to support WAY more power. That extra support adds weight, regardless of a redesign.

I am not arguing that weight reduction helps performance, but there is much more to it than just that number. A well engineered and balanced 3700 pound car can out handle a 3400 pound car that was not engineered for handling performance.

Its a huge balancing act. But unfortunately, all this new tech, creature comforts, and government safety regulations increase weight. The car will be a great performer, and those who only require 2 seats can do a rear seat delete (not optimal but can save tons of weight). Ford has to target a large demographic where most wont miss that 100-200 pound weight loss.

 

[eurospeed]

Just to add my thoughts in the mix...weight is absolutely my number one concern. My last car was an FR-S and the package was excellent, though poor manufacturing quality and even worse service from Toyota absolutely blew it; but that is another story.

As others have stated, controlling weight means greatly improved driving dynamics from acceleration to braking to tossing the car around in the turns -- and even if you don't plan to track or push your car, you should want reduced weight not only for the obvious fuel savings, but also for safety bonuses such as improved accident avoidance.

While the 2015 Mustang is a visually striking package, the nearly equal length is not a good start in the weight battle. I'm really hoping for at least 200 lb across the board, otherwise back to car shopping...

 

[FordBlueHeart]

Maybe we should start a poll? "Option A" is a Mustang that has more power, better interior refinements, handles and rides better than the previous generation but weighs the same. Option B is a Mustang that doesn't do anything better than "Option A". In fact, "Option B" isn't as well planted on the road, but it weighs 200 lbs. less.

 

[eurospeed]

Maybe we should start a poll? "Option A" is a Mustang that has more power, better interior refinements, handles and rides better than the previous generation but weighs the same. Option B is a Mustang that doesn't do anything better than "Option A". In fact, "Option B" isn't as well planted on the road, but it weighs 200 lbs. less.

Option 'B' would naturally include improved handling due to the reduced weight so you can't have one without the other, all other variables being the same. Also, more power, interior refinements, and better ride certainly do not need to be associated with increased weight. Increased weight in your poll should come from overall geometry, structural safety additions, onboard nannies, electronic gadgets, insulation and structure for noise, vib., harshness (NVH), and we can't forget the killer of a non optimized design (over designing a component, using inferior materials, etc.). I don't expect this to be Porsche level engineering, but the GT is not a very inexpensive vehicle either.

For me, 'B' would be an easy decision.

 

[FordBlueHeart]

Option 'B' would naturally include improved handling due to the reduced weight so you can't have one without the other all other variables being the same. Also, more power, interior refinements, and better ride certainly do not need to be associated with increased weight. Increased weight in your poll should come from structural safety additions, onboard nannies, electronic gadgets, insulation and structure for noise, vib., harshness (NVH), etc.

For me, 'B' would be an easy decision.

That wasn't part of Option B. You can't associate better handling with just reduced weight. The reason that people believe the weight will increase or stay the same instead of dropping is because of increased rigidity in the chassis.

Let me try this another way. Option A is the 2015 Mustang. It weighs the exact same as the 2014 yet handles far better and all of the other improvements we have been reading about. Option B is a 2014 Mustang with the rear seat removed as well as some other small things to make up a 200 lb weight loss. It handles better than a stock 2014, but can't hold a candle to the 2015.

 

[eurospeed]

That wasn't part of Option B. You can't associate better handling with just reduced weight. The reason that people believe the weight will increase or stay the same instead of dropping is because of increased rigidity in the chassis.

The easy solution is to reduce the overall size of the vehicle. Add in additional stiffness and handling improvements, but on a much smaller envelope. This is exactly why I am nervous about any real weight reduction given the 2015 is only fractionally shorter.

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