Rumor: Steeda Blog - 2015 Mustang Weight Gain (Updated with Steeda's Response)

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Rob WH

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Yes the new GT 5.0 has a standard oil cooler for 2015. There is no dual clutch in the Mustang, or the Corvette for that matter. Both use a torque converter.
Ford says the SelectShift 6spd is a dual clutch semi-automatic... Idonno, but since they're employing rpm matched downshifting on the automatic, I'd say that's a fair assessment.
GM also filed for a patent on a 7spd dual clutch automatic (apparently for the Corvette) and if you look at their provided drawings, it's absolutely a clutch system, no torque converter in sight. They went into specific detail, calling it a clutch system and labeling parts as clutch parts... Idonno what else to call it, except what they call it because it's their patent.

I wasn't aware AFM was in the works for the 5.0L. I thought "AFM" was a GM trademark. Could be wrong...
I don't know that it is AFM, just that it's similar in that it is a system which changes air flow to some strong degree and was merely pointing out, it will add weight not previously there.

TiVCT is already on the Coyote, I'm sure we will see some weight for DI but not much. The Coyote was designed with DI in mind (future proof).
Yep. I'm kinda expecting that "surprise" if we're to see the hoped for power numbers.

It's pretty simple, the only way they can increase output and MPG's is to reduce weight and improve aerodynamics.
I agree with that too, with very few possible exceptions, such as DI.

Ford did collaborate on a "twin fuel" DI design(Bobcat) using the 5L, which was shown in 2009... I suspect that is why many are convinced the 5L is already... ready... for DI. The DI portion was E85 and used a separate injector. I don't know how accurately we can claim DI is "ready" on it, but it can't be far off for a usable system.

Check and check...

Even if the '15 weighed 3618lbs like the '14, increasing power usually sees a reduction in MPG's. Weight helps with the "City" portion where aero helps at speed. Increase power and weight, MPG's go down... Increase power and MPG's, weight has to come down.

Ford would be the only manufacturer that has produced a 2 door sports coupe that's heavier than their 4 door sedan w/ a 5 inch longer WB. If the base Fusion/Mondeo weighs 3425-3475lbs, the EB Mustang has to be lighter.
:lol: That's funny to read...(no sarcasm) Of course, there is the heavier rear in the Mustang and the transmission is likely pounds heavier. It has a drive shaft not used in FWD applications. It has extra metal for the tub, just to make room for the D/S. That said, the 2L Fusion isn't that light according to Ford. Someone added the weight recently and it's over 3500.





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Dyno

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The Fusion and S550 are related, there are 10 years between the two. The CD4 and S550 are under One Ford and use the new Silhouette Innovation Unibody.

The outgoing Kinetic 2.0 Taurus weighs close to 4100lbs with 112 inch WB. The new Silhouette Innovation Fusion (w/112 inch WB) weighs 3600lbs.

NO Aluminum just design. The S197 initially wasn't too heavy, around 3500. The long lasting S197 had numerous band aids attached as it aged, they worked but, added weight.

If the D2C was shared or even remotely similar to anything else, we could say it was heavier than the previous Fusion.

This time, the CD4 and S550 are sharing weight saving techniques. They also use similar power trains (2.0 and 2.3). Its smaller than the S197 AND the Fusion, it shouldn't be an issue.

Remember, the S550 structure fit into an S197, it's smaller no doubt.
You have some valid points and possibilities, but also a lot of pure conjecture. I have not seen anything that ties S550 to CD391 other than that they are produced at the same plant. I have also not seen anywhere suggested that the platform bears a connection (other than using a variation of Ford's integral link IRS design) to each other, much less that they are sharing weight saving techniques. It could be true but we definitely do not have enough info to say that right now.
 

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Ford says the SelectShift 6spd is a dual clutch semi-automatic... Idonno, but since they're employing rpm matched downshifting on the automatic, I'd say that's a fair assessment.
GM also filed for a patent on a 7spd dual clutch automatic (apparently for the Corvette) and if you look at their provided drawings, it's absolutely a clutch system, no torque converter in sight. They went into specific detail, calling it a clutch system and labeling parts as clutch parts... Idonno what else to call it, except what they call it because it's their patent.

I don't know that it is AFM, just that it's similar in that it is a system which changes air flow to some strong degree and was merely pointing out, it will add weight not previously there.

Yep. I'm kinda expecting that "surprise" if we're to see the hoped for power numbers.

I agree with that too, with very few possible exceptions, such as DI.

Ford did collaborate on a "twin fuel" DI design(Bobcat) using the 5L, which was shown in 2009... I suspect that is why many are convinced the 5L is already... ready... for DI. The DI portion was E85 and used a separate injector. I don't know how accurately we can claim DI is "ready" on it, but it can't be far off for a usable system.

:lol: That's funny to read...(no sarcasm) Of course, there is the heavier rear in the Mustang and the transmission is likely pounds heavier. It has a drive shaft not used in FWD applications. It has extra metal for the tub, just to make room for the D/S. That said, the 2L Fusion isn't that light according to Ford. Someone added the weight recently and it's over 3500.
Regarding the transmission: Ford does have a 6-speed dual clutch used on the Focus and maybe some of their smaller, lower torque, cars. The 6-speed used on the Mustang has a torque converter and planetary gearsets. Ford may call them both "select shifts" (I don't know what that means for Ford), but the reason for that name may be because both have paddles or some other type of "manual mode". The rev-matching is completely separate from whether the transmission is a dual clutch or a torque converter automatic.

Regarding AFM: That is what GM calls their cylinder deactivation technology. It uses 4 oil filled lifters that can be "disabled" to allow the valves to remain closed, such that those cylinders act as air springs and do not use any fuel and do not create pumping losses. The Charge Motion Control valves are, from my understanding, basically small shutters that reduce the size of the intake ports to increase velocity and possibly turbulence, to create better fuel mixing and higher torque at lower RPM. I realize you already knew they were completely different, and were just comparing them in terms of weight. So, in terms of weight increase, I doubt the AFM lifters added much. I suspect much of the weight added to the LT1 engine was due to the VVT and DI. For Ford, I would guess those Charge valves add a few pounds, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 7. I do know that the AFM did have a cascading effect that required other weight to be added to reduce NVH during four cylinder mode (such as the change to a steel prop shaft and the additional exhaust valves), but those were accounted for separately in that chart.

-T
 

Rob WH

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Regarding the transmission: Ford does have a 6-speed dual clutch used on the Focus and maybe some of their smaller, lower torque, cars. The 6-speed used on the Mustang has a torque converter and planetary gearsets. Ford may call them both "select shifts" (I don't know what that means for Ford), but the reason for that name may be because both have paddles or some other type of "manual mode". The rev-matching is completely separate from whether the transmission is a dual clutch or a torque converter automatic.

Regarding AFM: That is what GM calls their cylinder deactivation technology. It uses 4 oil filled lifters that can be "disabled" to allow the valves to remain closed, such that those cylinders act as air springs and do not use any fuel and do not create pumping losses. The Charge Motion Control valves are, from my understanding, basically small shutters that reduce the size of the intake ports to increase velocity and possibly turbulence, to create better fuel mixing and higher torque at lower RPM. I realize you already knew they were completely different, and were just comparing them in terms of weight. So, in terms of weight increase, I doubt the AFM lifters added much. I suspect much of the weight added to the LT1 engine was due to the VVT and DI. For Ford, I would guess those Charge valves add a few pounds, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 7. I do know that the AFM did have a cascading effect that required other weight to be added to reduce NVH during four cylinder mode (such as the change to a steel prop shaft and the additional exhaust valves), but those were accounted for separately in that chart.

-T
To be honest, I hadn't even considered the current transmission. I simply, and probably mistakenly took for granted, Ford was replacing the 6spd auto with a newer version like they use in other small vehicles and that's because of paddle shifters. Also, I completely agree that Ford has implemented a new system for the rev matching, which could've been left out altogether and therefore, isn't necessary or excluded from any version of transmission they would likely choose.

Indeed, it is stand alone. Since they use SelectShift on the F-150, I don't believe paddle shift is at all an integral part of that transmission, just like rev matching, but another stand alone subsystem attached. Of course, the F-150 version certainly has a torque converter as well. It's tiny, but no doubt, is. Of course, it's a really different transmission operationally insofar as manual inputs.

The 7 lb figure at most, I have to agree with and like you, I really think it will be a little less. Just looking at their information, my guess is anywhere between 3 and 5. Unless Ford does go DI, I don't expect any bigger weight gains for the engine, but they may total 8-10 lb. Not great, but needed due to the design of the engine, for growing power and/or torque.
 

thePill

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I can see a lot of similarities between the CD4 and S550. The S and Y braces, rocker construction, runner size, no rear kick up, no front torque boxes, A/C pillar "Fusion" (PUN!) and a lot more. The fusion retained a similar driveshaft tunnel as well, to support AWD.

Think about rear door weight w/glass, total mass vs. the S550, a FWD transmission weighs more than a 109lbs Getrag by far. You got IRS (which the Fusion shares with the S550).

The AWD Fusion weighs 3687lbs US standard... A GT is not going to be heavier than that... With a EB6 (Coyote could be lighter 428lbs), Getrag is lighter, no transmission comes close, they are using the automatics weight right? That's close to 200lbs vs. the Coyotes 109lbs. The AWD Fusion has a driveshaft AND, a rear diff and halfshalfs.

Thats lbs bud, plus rear door weight, glass, mass.

The Fusion was a test bed, the Mustang will adopt what worked.
 

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Taneras

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Here is a quick comparison of the two:

image.jpg


So the Mustang has a shorter wheelbase and overall length, is shorter in height, but has a wider overall width and rear track.

What is the weight difference between the 3.7 and the 5.0? How much difference between a FWD and RWD set-up?
I'd also venture to guess that the MKZ has more features standard (extra weight) than the Mustang would.
 

Rob WH

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I can see a lot of similarities between the CD4 and S550. The S and Y braces, rocker construction, runner size, no rear kick up, no front torque boxes, A/C pillar "Fusion" (PUN!) and a lot more. The fusion retained a similar driveshaft tunnel as well, to support AWD.

Think about rear door weight w/glass, total mass vs. the S550, a FWD transmission weighs more than a 109lbs Getrag by far. You got IRS (which the Fusion shares with the S550).

The AWD Fusion weighs 3687lbs US standard... A GT is not going to be heavier than that... With a EB6 (Coyote could be lighter 428lbs), Getrag is lighter, no transmission comes close, they are using the automatics weight right? That's close to 200lbs vs. the Coyotes 109lbs. The AWD Fusion has a driveshaft AND, a rear diff and halfshalfs.

Thats lbs bud, plus rear door weight, glass, mass.

The Fusion was a test bed, the Mustang will adopt what worked.
With the AWD models, the weight is 3681 and the MKZ is 3713... according to Ford. There's a litany of big differences between those and Mustang. I expect the Mustang to be lighter in many areas, but as a sum total, maybe, maybe not. Perhaps it required more of a heavy steel to meet crash requirements due to the shape of the car? Maybe the Mustang is wider and uses heavier wheels and tires. The overall length is only a few inches different. The Mustang rear will certainly be stronger and heavier than any AWD model these cars have, as it's designed to receive 100% of the shock load rather than about 30% of it. Mustang will have much larger and heavier brakes. Mustang seats may weigh more, etc. There's plenty of possibilities.

The AWD 6F35 and 6F50(used in many Fords, but idonno about the new Fusion) is HEAVY @ about 215 lb and the Getrag is about as light as 6spd manuals get @ a listed 56kg(123.5 lb) dry. It may well be lighter than any AWD transverse axle in use... donno. That weight diff would easily offset the rear difference and then some. Fusion will have more glass for sure. It has 4 lighter doors, but surely more overall than 2 heavier. Less tire/wheel/brake system weight...

:headbonk::headbonk::headbonk:

Ultimately, there are simply too many factors to guess and we'd be best just waiting till we can scale the new Mustang! :thumbsup:

Not that you have to or anything, but I think it's making too many heads hurt, starting with mine! :doh:
 

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Regarding the transmission: Ford does have a 6-speed dual clutch used on the Focus and maybe some of their smaller, lower torque, cars. The 6-speed used on the Mustang has a torque converter and planetary gearsets. Ford may call them both "select shifts" (I don't know what that means for Ford), but the reason for that name may be because both have paddles or some other type of "manual mode". The rev-matching is completely separate from whether the transmission is a dual clutch or a torque converter automatic.

Regarding AFM: That is what GM calls their cylinder deactivation technology. It uses 4 oil filled lifters that can be "disabled" to allow the valves to remain closed, such that those cylinders act as air springs and do not use any fuel and do not create pumping losses. The Charge Motion Control valves are, from my understanding, basically small shutters that reduce the size of the intake ports to increase velocity and possibly turbulence, to create better fuel mixing and higher torque at lower RPM. I realize you already knew they were completely different, and were just comparing them in terms of weight. So, in terms of weight increase, I doubt the AFM lifters added much. I suspect much of the weight added to the LT1 engine was due to the VVT and DI. For Ford, I would guess those Charge valves add a few pounds, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 7. I do know that the AFM did have a cascading effect that required other weight to be added to reduce NVH during four cylinder mode (such as the change to a steel prop shaft and the additional exhaust valves), but those were accounted for separately in that chart.

-T
I thought "Select Shift" goes back to the Fords of the sixties?
 

carguy1701

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I haven't been following the conversation, but I do have some info that might help.

To be honest, I hadn't even considered the current transmission. I simply, and probably mistakenly took for granted, Ford was replacing the 6spd auto with a newer version like they use in other small vehicles and that's because of paddle shifters. Also, I completely agree that Ford has implemented a new system for the rev matching, which could've been left out altogether and therefore, isn't necessary or excluded from any version of transmission they would likely choose.

Indeed, it is stand alone. Since they use SelectShift on the F-150, I don't believe paddle shift is at all an integral part of that transmission, just like rev matching, but another stand alone subsystem attached. Of course, the F-150 version certainly has a torque converter as well. It's tiny, but no doubt, is. Of course, it's a really different transmission operationally insofar as manual inputs.

The 7 lb figure at most, I have to agree with and like you, I really think it will be a little less. Just looking at their information, my guess is anywhere between 3 and 5. Unless Ford does go DI, I don't expect any bigger weight gains for the engine, but they may total 8-10 lb. Not great, but needed due to the design of the engine, for growing power and/or torque.
Regarding the transmission: Ford does have a 6-speed dual clutch used on the Focus and maybe some of their smaller, lower torque, cars. The 6-speed used on the Mustang has a torque converter and planetary gearsets. Ford may call them both "select shifts" (I don't know what that means for Ford), but the reason for that name may be because both have paddles or some other type of "manual mode". The rev-matching is completely separate from whether the transmission is a dual clutch or a torque converter automatic.

Regarding AFM: That is what GM calls their cylinder deactivation technology. It uses 4 oil filled lifters that can be "disabled" to allow the valves to remain closed, such that those cylinders act as air springs and do not use any fuel and do not create pumping losses. The Charge Motion Control valves are, from my understanding, basically small shutters that reduce the size of the intake ports to increase velocity and possibly turbulence, to create better fuel mixing and higher torque at lower RPM. I realize you already knew they were completely different, and were just comparing them in terms of weight. So, in terms of weight increase, I doubt the AFM lifters added much. I suspect much of the weight added to the LT1 engine was due to the VVT and DI. For Ford, I would guess those Charge valves add a few pounds, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 7. I do know that the AFM did have a cascading effect that required other weight to be added to reduce NVH during four cylinder mode (such as the change to a steel prop shaft and the additional exhaust valves), but those were accounted for separately in that chart.

-T
The 6R80 as used in the Mustang, F-150, and Expedition isn't even a Ford design; they licensed one of the high torque variants of ZF's 6HP transmissions. I will confess that I do not know how much it weighs, but I'm gonna hazard a guess at about 200-220 lbs, give or take.

Paddle shifters can be used on any type of auto-shifting transmission, be it planetary gear, single clutch sequential, dual clutch, or CVT, as Trackaholic said. It all depends on how they're programmed. If memory serves, the ZF 6HP has provisions for rev matching downshifts, and according to the dealer order guide for the 2013 Mustang, that logic is present on those cars, so I don't see why it wouldn't be included on the S550. The thing that will be interesting to see is how fast it shifts in automatic and manual mode.

As for the Coyote, I doubt that much weight will be gained by the charge motion valves. DI hardware, when it comes, doesn't add much weight by itself either.
 

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I thought "Select Shift" goes back to the Fords of the sixties?
The name was used back then, yeah, but the transmissions it is current used on have little in common with the C4 and C6 autos.
 

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If memory serves, the ZF 6HP has provisions for rev matching downshifts, and according to the dealer order guide for the 2013 Mustang, that logic is present on those cars, so I don't see why it wouldn't be included on the S550. The thing that will be interesting to see is how fast it shifts in automatic and manual mode.
I'm going to assume that it'll shift just like it does in the 13-14 automatics, correct?
 

carguy1701

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I'm going to assume that it'll shift just like it does in the 13-14 automatics, correct?
Yeah. I haven't had a chance to drive a 13-14, but I read a test on one of the blog sites (think it was Autoblog) that said that in manual mode, shift times were about what you'd expect from an novice to average manual driver.

The big thing for me is that we finally got paddles instead of that dinky (and frankly stupid looking, IMO) rocker switch. I don't understand why Ford couldn't have used an H-gate like what was used on the 10-12 Fusion Sport.
 

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There are some videos floating around here of "Test Rides" from various car magazines, etc. that show you in car how it shifts. The driving modes in the Premium versions make changes to how it shifts as well. The A/T is great in my 2013. Yeah the rocker switch is horrible, but sport mode without using the switch is quite good. Even in normal mode, it makes up for shift timing with smoothness, much better than an average Manual driver, I'd think.
 

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