Deatschwerks X3 Fuel system

[engineermike]

I'm going way simpler. ....can be captured in a simple relay between the pump relay/trigger and the pump itself. You can configure the indicator light relay such that when there's current, the light is off and if there's a current loss, the relay triggers power to the light.

This really sounds like the switch is activated based on supply voltage, not current. Maybe a wiring diagram is in order. If you unhook the pump completely/open circuit the light still goes off and on as if there is no issue because there is still voltage, but there is no current. The only way to trigger based on current is to either put the light in series with the pump (bad idea) or to use a hall-effect sensor and other circuitry with acceptable window-logic, as Ford does it.

Secondly, pwm current can be anywhere from 12 to 100% of max, all of which are acceptable during normal driving. So any sort of warning light that's hard-wired (or relay driven) would need to be set up just right so that something like 13% duty cycle doesn't look like an error.

It's honestly no different than the internal features of a lit switch. The little bulb is on when in the switch on and it's off when the circuit is disconnected. If there's a loss of circuit, the light is off, if there's a circuit, the light is on. Easy peasy.

Again, these lit switches light up based on voltage, not current. Either that or the light is in series with the switched supply which is, again, a bad idea for anything over a very low amperage.

The issue we're having here is that the market wasn't really accommodating to single/big pump solutions. Hangers and buckets are generally configured to feature multiple smaller pumps rather than one higher (but larger) output pump. Radium allows for the feature of the BKS1000 pump now, which boosted will give more flow than most amateurs need. I'm pretty sure that a single DW440 or Fuelab pump boosted will as well, but with less total head room.

This is why I keep going back to the DW810. I simply don't see what the problem is with running this single pump. The BKS1000 is another viable single that can definitely get the job done. I'd love to make one of these work using the factory PCM logic to drive the speed controller.

As for the DW440, I thought long and hard about that one, but it doesn't do any more than a DW400 unless you run it at 24 volts. Might as well run a pair of DW400s at 20 volts.

As of now, if I had to recommend a fuel system for the OPs setup I can think of several ideas I like better than any triple pump setup with a combination of brushless and brushed pumps.

1. Pair of DW400s at 18 volts, driven by PCM FPC output. If a single DW400 can support 900+ whp I can't imagine a pair not capable of 1100 with the right size line.
2. Single DW810 (or BKS1000), with controller driven by PCM FPC output.
3. GT500 bucket driven at 18 volts, again driven by PCM FPC output.
4. KPM bucket and controller.

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[Timbuck]

Fuel pressure gauge with audible alarm is an easy solution. I have after market oil pressure and temp set up like this.

i wonder if KPM fuel systems sell their bucket separately ? one of those with a dw810 would be a nice Set up.

 

[beefcake]

I have made the decision to run the Deatschwerks X3 fuel system with my upcoming turbo build. The kit utilizes 3 DW400 brushed pumps, but can accommodate a single DW810 or DW440 brushless pump in lieu of one of the 3 DW400 pumps. I have a few questions for the fueling experts.

1. Should I stick with the 3 DW400 pumps what come with the kit or upgrade one of them for the DW810 or DW440 brushless?

2. Will Deatschwerks 1500 injectors be enough injector to support 1100 rwhp with a little overhead room left?

3. If I run the DW810 brushless, should I hardwire it and leave the two DW400 pumps on the FPDM and keep my JMS BAP on those?

I know some will say the BAP is a bandaid, but given the fueling upgrades considered here and the fact that I already have the BAP installed, I would like to keep it if at all possible. Bear in mind that the JMS BAP is not active 100% of the time, it’s only active above 40% throttle.

See links below for product descriptions and capabilities.

https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-401-604-7032

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...stang_X3_Tech_Sheet_7-8-24_1.pdf?v=1722961187

https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-811-c105-1002

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...-b6e0-483c-80ec-1e9a8583281b.pdf?v=1701466016

https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-442-c103-0906?variant=43640191811825#nolinkdefined

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...less_Tech_Sheet.pdf?v=1702576078?v=1702575243

We can help with all the dw parts for you, can also offer options with fore that would come in less for a triple setup, but whichevere route your thinking can def asssit with

 

[NGOT8R]

Update: Here is the response back from Deatschwerks regarding questions that I asked them about the X3 fuel system.

Hi Adrian,

8AN will work for your power level but 10AN would be better, the return should be 1 size down from the feed.

I would suggest our 1500cc injectors so you have a little head room, PN# 16M-23-1500-8. https://deatschwerks.com/products/16m-23-1500-8

A return system is necessary for your power level, not that it cant be done returnless, but its way more resilient and simpler to go return.

The only control system you will need is a way to trigger the Second stage fuel pumps, typically this is done with either a Hobb switch on the intake manifold, or if you are using a standalone ECU by setting up a generic output when demand increases.

Brandon McDaniel
Senior Technical Product Specialist

 

[SheepDog]

A single brushless and if that isn't enough, then boost that.

Brush style motors are just..............outdated and inferior. Seriously.

If I placed a table of cordless tools in front of you NONE of the brands or models you'd pick are brush motor. They're junk. The small tools industry moved away from them decades ago. They're less efficient, create more heat, burn up and fail at a rate SIGNIFICANTLY higher than brushless motors.

Brushless motors are more expensive. The controller also adds to the size/volume needed to accommodate them.

I'd say go with the brushless and if you're running out of fuel or right on the edge, then boost it. There's several boosters on the market with various control strategies.

Not at all arguing your point, but why do all auto manufacturers still use brushed pumps?

 

[engineermike]

Seems like dw didn’t really answer any of the key concerns, and gave pretty generic answers otherwise.

 

[NGOT8R]

Seems like dw didn’t really answer any of the key concerns, and gave pretty generic answers otherwise.

Perhaps, but I’d say they at least confirmed what I thought I already knew. Sometimes companies play it safe, so as to not get into the weeds or have their feet held to the fire. Regardless, I will work through it and come up with a way to install it that will be more than adequate for my needs.

 

[NGOT8R]

VaporWorx update:

Here is the conversaction between me and VaporWorx.

Me: Hello,

I recently purchased a Deatschwerks X3 fuel system that has the option to house three DW400 brushed pumps or one DW810 brushless pump and two DW400 pumps together. In addition to the X3 system, I will be running DW1500 injectors. My car is a 2019 Bullitt Mustang which will be powered by a single 80/96 T6 turbo kit.

Will your PWM controller for 3-4 pumps be more than enough to support 1000 who on E85 with just the three brushed DW400 pumps or would it be best to run one DW810 brushless pump independently (wired directly to the battery) and the two DW400 pumps with your 1-2 pump PWM controller?

Lastly, does your kit bypass the factory Fuel Pump Driver Module? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Adrian

———————————————————————————————————————

VaporWorx: Hello Adrian,

For 1000hp forced induction usually two of the DW400 pumps is sufficient. Three no doubt.

Having a mix of pump types means having multiple controllers and more stuff.

VaporWorx can offer a piggyback system that can work with OEM returnless systems. These are strictly returnless systems.

--
Carl Casanova
VaporWorx

 

[NGOT8R]

Here’s the VaporWorx system.


https://www.vaporworx.com/shop/product/returnx-return-type-pwm-controller-kit-for-3-4-pump-systems/ system.

 

[engineermike]

The vaporworx controller performs nearly the identical function as the stock fpdm. Kpm makes one as well. Both have a higher electrical current capacity vs the single stock fpdm though, and both use their own fuel pressure sensor to control off of. The only issue I have is that they can only perform feedback control, where the stock fpdm incorporates feedforward control as well. I would he inclined to use the stock fpdm fpc signal to control the vaporworx (or kpm) pwm controller so that the feedforward function still works.

It would he nice if you could boost the voltage to the vaporworx but I don’t think it would work.

Edit: I still think a single dw810 is the best solution for this situation.

 

[NGOT8R]

Follow up conversation between me and VaporWorx.

Me: Thanks for the reply Carl,

Would this be beneficial to me to run in concert with my triple brushed pump return style fuel system or would it be considered overkill? If so, would it eliminate my current Boost-A-Pump?

Thank you,

Adrian

———————————————————————————————————————

VaporWorx:
It would be helpful for the triple brushed.

It eliminates the need for Hobb's switches, relays, etc. When combined with the slowing down of the pumps during idle and cruise it becomes a practical reason for using it.

Most all voltage boosters do not have sufficient power to provide a real benefit for multiple pumps. In most cases triple 450's can support near 1500hp on their own.

Carl Casanova
VaporWorx
[email protected]
805-390-6423

 

[engineermike]

Right, all the baps won’t support enough current to run two+ pumps. You’d have to run a pair of baps feeding the single pwm controller. More practically, you could run a single pwm controller, controlled by the pcm fpc output, and use the pcm logic to boost system voltage to 15.2 volts at high fuel flow conditions. This and a pair of dw400s would likely be a simple solution that would handle the fuel demand. However, it still has the problem of hidden fuel pump failures.

 

[LOL WUT]

So I’ve read all the posts here, and constantly consider changing my fuel system to alleviate my concerns of one pump failing while I’m WOT. I understand that brushless in theory are better; but require more advanced controlling (which I’m not entirely interested in).

Is there not a single brushed pump, that fits in a radium bucket and flows enough to push 850-900 whp on E85 “safely”? I feel this would be the easy button option but if it existed, it’d be the common approach.

Mike, I know that you’ve extensively tested the DW400 and it’s a potential option in this scenario (but likely pushing things a lot). Is there not a bigger/better flowing pump that doesn’t introduce new issues/concerns with high voltages/heat?

 

[cbrtrx]

So I’ve read all the posts here, and constantly consider changing my fuel system to alleviate my concerns of one pump failing while I’m WOT. I understand that brushless in theory are better; but require more advanced controlling (which I’m not entirely interested in).

Is there not a single brushed pump, that fits in a radium bucket and flows enough to push 850-900 whp on E85 “safely”? I feel this would be the easy button option but if it existed, it’d be the common approach.

Mike, I know that you’ve extensively tested the DW400 and it’s a potential option in this scenario (but likely pushing things a lot). Is there not a bigger/better flowing pump that doesn’t introduce new issues/concerns with high voltages/heat?

I was just thinking I wonder what the largest single brushed pump that can fit in that bucket is. Obviously a 295 walbro would fit but I'm wondering if anything else larger is available.

 

[engineermike]

Is there not a single brushed pump, that fits in a radium bucket and flows enough to push 850-900 whp on E85 “safely”? I feel this would be the easy button option but if it existed, it’d be the common approach.

Mike, I know that you’ve extensively tested the DW400 and it’s a potential option in this scenario (but likely pushing things a lot). Is there not a bigger/better flowing pump that doesn’t introduce new issues/concerns with high voltages/heat?

If there’s a brushed pump bigger than the dw400 that includes an integral check valve and venturi connection, I’d like to know about it.

Otherwise, the dw400/bap will support 900+ whp at 20 volts, and it’s rated for this voltage.

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