Deatschwerks X3 Fuel system

[Dyimon08]

If the ring has been off before it comes off pretty easy.

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[J17GT]

This ring removal tool worked perfect for me. I was surprised how tight it was getting the ring off and then on with the new hat. It’s on sale for $13.99.

6599 Fuel Tank Ring Tool

 

[Nobuemon]

$550 might not be so bad if you run the risk of violating rules that could create trouble where you lay your head at night. Looking forward to hearing how it turns out for you.

I am curious to know what made you choose the X3?

More of an annoyance and potential bad blood, to be honest, I have an 18 month lease here :(

It looks really easy to do with the instructions provided(didn't see others just lay it all out like that, all I saw was "go to a shop, requires professional installation"), and it's presumably plug and play, minus the fact that I have to assemble it all AND fittings on the lines...

Oh, and I got one of the old online discounts to work so it came out really cheap with the rails/injectors. Pretty much got the whole fueling kit with the Black Friday discount before it was Black Friday.

P.S. If anyone can explain to me how to properly assemble rails with a crossover, I'd really appreciate that.

 

[Angrey]

A single brushless and if that isn't enough, then boost that.

Brush style motors are just..............outdated and inferior. Seriously.

If I placed a table of cordless tools in front of you NONE of the brands or models you'd pick are brush motor. They're junk. The small tools industry moved away from them decades ago. They're less efficient, create more heat, burn up and fail at a rate SIGNIFICANTLY higher than brushless motors.

Brushless motors are more expensive. The controller also adds to the size/volume needed to accommodate them.

I'd say go with the brushless and if you're running out of fuel or right on the edge, then boost it. There's several boosters on the market with various control strategies.

 

[NGOT8R]

More of an annoyance and potential bad blood, to be honest, I have an 18 month lease here :(

It looks really easy to do with the instructions provided(didn't see others just lay it all out like that, all I saw was "go to a shop, requires professional installation"), and it's presumably plug and play, minus the fact that I have to assemble it all AND fittings on the lines...

Oh, and I got one of the old online discounts to work so it came out really cheap with the rails/injectors. Pretty much got the whole fueling kit with the Black Friday discount before it was Black Friday.

P.S. If anyone can explain to me how to properly assemble rails with a crossover, I'd really appreciate that.

You can buy the Deatschwerks fuel rails which come with a premade crossover line. That’s what I did, even though I have new Holley rails that came with my intake manifold. At the very least, I will use the crossover line. I will also compare the Holley rails with the Deatschwerks rails to see which ones are better and use those.

 

[NGOT8R]

The DW810 or a DW440 brushless pump and Vaporworx PWM Controller look very appealing to me. Maybe with the PWM Controller, I can give the two remaining brushed DW400 pumps some relief.

By replacing one of the DW400 pumps with an 810 brushed, thet leaves me with a spare DW400 which I would hope to never have to use.

I believe max voltage for the DW810 is 13.5. Deatschwerks says: *Boosting pump voltage over 14.5v does not increase pump Flow Rate*.

https://www.vaporworx.com/shop/product/returnx-return-type-pwm-controller-kit-for-3-4-pump-systems/

 

[engineermike]

Wait you want to run a dw810 along with appropriate brushless controller, and a pair of dw400’s on baps and pwm controllers. Honestly this sounds like a recipe for disaster and the absolute most complicated way possible.

 

[NGOT8R]

Wait you want to run a dw810 along with appropriate brushless controller, and a pair of dw400’s on baps and pwm controllers. Honestly this sounds like a recipe for disaster and the absolute most complicated way possible.

I was thinking about it, but I certainly don’t like that one word (Disaster), so I will rethink it.

The Vaporworx PWM controller says it’s for brushless pumps on a return system. If that’s the case, I’ll consider that with the three DW400 pumps. Tbh, though, I really would love it if I didn’t have to spend any more money on fueling mods.

Thankfully, I have plenty of time to figure things out. I am in no rush as we speak.

I would like to hear your take on why it’s such a recipe for disaster. Talk me down off the ledge before I slip and fall, lol.

 

[Nobuemon]

You can buy the Deatschwerks fuel rails which come with a premade crossover line. That’s what I did, even though I have new Holley rails that came with my intake manifold. At the very least, I will use the crossover line. I will also compare the Holley rails with the Deatschwerks rails to see which ones are better and use those.

Yup, I got the whole fueling set from them: rails, X3 kit, and injectors. But they don't have moron-mode installation guide for the rails lmao

 

[NGOT8R]

Yup, I got the whole fueling set from them: rails, X3 kit, and injectors. But they don't have moron-mode installation guide for the rails lmao

Do you plan on running a PWM controller with your X3?

 

[engineermike]

The Vaporworx PWM controller says it’s for brushless pumps on a return system.

For starters pwm, by nature, is not for brushless pumps. The stock fpdm is a pwm module, by the way. Brushless pumps have their own type of speed controller that works drastically different from pwm. You'll need to understand the purpose and nature of all components on a custom fuel system, especially one as complicated as what you are planning.

I would like to hear your take on why it’s such a recipe for disaster. Talk me down off the ledge before I slip and fall, lol.

How do you plan to stage and control each pump? You're talking PWM controllers plus brushless controllers on two different kinds of pumps. How will they interact dynamically? Are they both feedback controllers and if so, what are they using as feedback? And where will each type of pump run on its curve when they're both (or all three) are on? Will all 3 have check valves? What about the venturi line?

And what concerns me significantly is what happens when any of the baps, PWM controllers, brushless controllers, or any of the 3 pumps fails? Will you know it before it's too late? This is what's attractive about a single pump to me, because you generally find out it failed during normal driving.

I'm not currently seeing many drawbacks to running a single DW810 or E5LM pump and brushless controller, while deleting the FPDM PWM control. Even better would be running the brushless controller off of the FPC output of the PCM, then you have a minimum number of components, easy diagnostics and fail safe, plus controllability with the stock logic which is highly versatile.

 

[NGOT8R]

@engineermike I was initially thinking the 810 pump would stand on it’s own with fhe included PWM controller and the remaining two 400 pumps would stay on the JMS BAP, but now I’m not so sure.

Maybe running the X3 on the three 400 pumps will be enough. If not, then I’ll look to improve the system from there. I just want the simplest setup that will support 1000 whip on E85 with room to spare.

 

[engineermike]

@engineermike I was initially thinking the 810 pump would stand on it’s own with fhe included PWM controller and the remaining two 400 pumps would stay on the JMS BAP, but now I’m not so sure..

So your intent here is to run a dw810 on the dual speed c105 controller or attempt a continuously variable output like the c102 controller? In either case where do you plan to source the input signal?

On the dw400’s, you say you want to run both off a bap. Baps generally are used with plug n play harnesses which implies the use of a stock fpdm to control the pump. This presents two issues: 1) the stock fpdm will not support enough amperage to run two dw400’s with or without a bap, meaning you’d have to wire in two baps and two fpdms which has all sorts of additional challenges, and 2) you now have the stock fuel pressure feedforward and feedback loop attempting to control lift pressure but it only has control over 2 of the 3 pumps which represents only half of potential fuel supply. This of course creates some new issues that can probably be tuned around using non-traditional means if your tuner really has a good understanding of how the pump is controlled. Furthermore the stock control might just decide to turn the dw400s off if the pressure is high, which would drop pressure instantly so we hope the injectors respond fast enough to the drop. It is very difficult to have multiple independent controllers controlling the same thing.

And another thing, if the dw400s are running at min dc and the dw810 is running full tilt, then I could see the dw400s winding up in a zero flow situation which will reduce pump life.

These are just a few things off the top of my head; I’m sure there are more. I’m still trying to figure out why we think a single dw810 isn’t enough fuel.

 

[NGOT8R]

So your intent here is to run a dw810 on the dual speed c105 controller or attempt a continuously variable output like the c102 controller? In either case where do you plan to source the input signal?

On the dw400’s, you say you want to run both off a bap. Baps generally are used with plug n play harnesses which implies the use of a stock fpdm to control the pump. This presents two issues: 1) the stock fpdm will not support enough amperage to run two dw400’s with or without a bap, meaning you’d have to wire in two baps and two fpdms which has all sorts of additional challenges, and 2) you now have the stock fuel pressure feedforward and feedback loop attempting to control lift pressure but it only has control over 2 of the 3 pumps which represents only half of potential fuel supply. This of course creates some new issues that can probably be tuned around using non-traditional means if your tuner really has a good understanding of how the pump is controlled. Furthermore the stock control might just decide to turn the dw400s off if the pressure is high, which would drop pressure instantly so we hope the injectors respond fast enough to the drop. It is very difficult to have multiple independent controllers controlling the same thing.

And another thing, if the dw400s are running at min dc and the dw810 is running full tilt, then I could see the dw400s winding up in a zero flow situation which will reduce pump life.

These are just a few things off the top of my head; I’m sure there are more. I’m still trying to figure out why we think a single dw810 isn’t enough fuel.

You’ve raised some very good points. I emailed Detschwerks some questions last week, so hopefully they will get back to me soon with some answers. I really don’t know if the 810 will be enough or not with E85. I’ll have to see what Deatschwerks has to say about that.

Research indicates that the 400 pump draws 16-20 amps. Deatschwerks also offers single and dual pump direct wire kits. Maybe I’m way overthinking this, but wouldn’t it be possible to bypass the FPDM and wire all three pumps directly to the battery (the 810 by itself and the 400s via the dual direct wire kit)? If this is possible, perhaps the 810 can run the car during normal driving and the two 400s can be powered up when needed for racing, thus prolonging their lives?

Amps. Wire Gauge

I’m no expert on fuel systems, I’m just trying to think outside of the box, while asking lots of questions to see what else is even possible.

 

[Timbuck]

I’m with Mike. DW810 and be done with it. Michael's is set up runs 1/2 speed all the time and high speed ( full noise) once it see’s 1 psi of boost as far as I remember. And @ 12v half speed the brushless is barely breaking a sweat Or pulling any AMPS. I emailed him to ask Though his YouTube channel. Very nice and responsive guy To questions. He used to run 3 pumps And had all sorts of drama’s now just 1 dw810 And love it.

i really like the KISS method of doing this set up. I know people complain about Hobb switch problems. But in reality it’s almost non issue with high quality stuff. I feel running 3 pumps more of a worry that one will fail mid race rather than a Hobbs failing.

each to there own But less is more in some cases , I sure like the simplicity of 1 pump set ups.

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