Cooled seats not cooling

[Evolvd]

So...should we start a class-action lawsuit since we all paid extra money for something that doesn't work as described? This would fall right into the definition of "false advertising"

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[RubyRed15]

So...should we start a class-action lawsuit since we all paid extra money for something that doesn't work as described? This would fall right into the definition of "false advertising"

Oh, no, they're "working as designed"... just ask them.

 

[ctlaw]

So...should we start a class-action lawsuit since we all paid extra money for something that doesn't work as described? This would fall right into the definition of "false advertising"

Yes, but.

Many won't take a technically complex case unless it involves safety, pollution, or is a clear winner. They do not want to take the risk of investing resources in something that might fail.

It's not my practice area (otherwise I would have filed it myself). But I know enough about it to know that any lawyer taking the case (including a "good" one) is likely to screw it up due to a lack of technical knowledge and lack of specific auto pricing knowledge.

Thus, should any of you pursue a class action or be aware of one, please have the lawyer contact me for some background. Then I'll pass the lawyer on to Darko66 for extreme technical details.

 

[RubyRed15]

If you're seriously pursuing this, please do so with the goal in mind of a fix. I don't want $1.16 for my troubles.

 

[ctlaw]

If you're seriously pursuing this, please do so with the goal in mind of a fix. I don't want $1.16 for my troubles.

A fix only occurs in a safety or regulatory compliance situation.

This will almost assuredly be limited to $. The problem is a bad attorney will get you that $1.16 rather than something more appropriate.

Even a "good" attorney without some very specific automotive business and technical insight may get you only $200.

There are also problems with class actions like this due to differences in plaintiffs.

Plaintiff A may have paid no less if he had known the seats did not work. He did not even notice the issue because he never even turned the cooled seats on. He arguably only suffered damage in terms of the loss of used car resale value from not having functional seats.

Plaintiff B may have not bought the car at all if he had known the seats would not have worked. His loss may include the entire depreciation of the car plus transactional costs. He may have wasted much time trying to get the seats to work. He may have suffered much discomfort and emotional distress when he drove 200 miles to go on a date and got out of his car soaked with sweat.

 

[Rich of So Cal]

Oh, no, they're "working as designed"... just ask them.

Working "as designed" and "as advertised" are not the same. They were advertised as seat coolers. They don't cool the seats...or my butt.

Today I tried putting some flexible styrofoam-like material in the back pocket, to hold the pocket open and allow heat to exit thru the "channel" created by the foam. The only thing I can say is, it didn't seem to heat up my back as bad as it usually does. I was in Palm Springs were it was 107. The negative is, I didn't really feel any cooling, either.

 

[RubyRed15]

A fix only occurs in a safety or regulatory compliance situation.

This will almost assuredly be limited to $. The problem is a bad attorney will get you that $1.16 rather than something more appropriate.

Even a "good" attorney without some very specific automotive business and technical insight may get you only $200.

There are also problems with class actions like this due to differences in plaintiffs.

Plaintiff A may have paid no less if he had known the seats did not work. He did not even notice the issue because he never even turned the cooled seats on. He arguably only suffered damage in terms of the loss of used car resale value from not having functional seats.

Plaintiff B may have not bought the car at all if he had known the seats would not have worked. His loss may include the entire depreciation of the car plus transactional costs. He may have wasted much time trying to get the seats to work. He may have suffered much discomfort and emotional distress when he drove 200 miles to go on a date and got out of his car soaked with sweat.

Right... so put another way... don't bother.

 

[Libertas]

Attorney here - agree, it is probably a waste of time to try to fix this through litigation.

Also, can confirm on my brand new June 1, 2016 build date GT Premium convertible - only seat bottom cools. Query - does AC need to be on for seats to cool more effectively? I have been riding around with the top down, AC off and seat cooling on. I will try putting the AC on to see if it makes any difference.

 

[ctlaw]

...Query - does AC need to be on for seats to cool more effectively? I have been riding around with the top down, AC off and seat cooling on. I will try putting the AC on to see if it makes any difference.

Anything that gets cooler air to the area under the front seat will help.

Based on my coupe, if you set the AC to discharge into the footwells, and not from the dash vents, you will get some cool air passing to the area below the seat. It will make a just noticable difference.

In my car, with the seat cooling control set at three bars, if I change the ac to footewell-only the seat back goes from hot to neutral and the seat bottom goes from a low cool (what I would expect from 1 bar in any other cooled seat car) to a medium-high cool (what I would expect from 2-3 bars).

If they give you three bars of control then even the 2-bar level should be so cold that there are times you want cooling (1-bar level) but not that much.

 

[gojensen]

my back is actually cooling and I often notice it before the seat... mind you, only been up to 20'C so far here... (built August 2015)

 

[papinist]

Well, you are in Norway
Here in Italy I can confirm that the back does not cool.

 

[Stangnut]

What about running a small (1" diameter?) hose/tube from one of the ducts under the dash directly into the seat back to the intake of the TED? It could hide under the console.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Attorney here - agree, it is probably a waste of time to try to fix this through litigation.

Also, can confirm on my brand new June 1, 2016 build date GT Premium convertible - only seat bottom cools. Query - does AC need to be on for seats to cool more effectively? I have been riding around with the top down, AC off and seat cooling on. I will try putting the AC on to see if it makes any difference.

A waste of time because why, because it's only for (1) addressable item?

How about a Class Action with a freaking list of Quality Control issues since the inception of the S550 - and we're not just talking the "base" models, or those under the average $30k-$40k purchase threshold - these QC issues affect even the Shelbys, where some people have paid in excess of $70k - for a vehicle that everyone is finding out is plagued with MANY Quality Control issues. Issues that should have NEVER made it to the end of the production line.

When can WE hold Ford responsible?

Why am I as an owner of a brand new vehicle having to spend exhorbitant amounts of my time bringing my brand new car back to the Dealer to deal with the MANY QC issues outlined on this very forum?

Hell, I shouldn't have to know any Ford CSR by name, email address and office phone number - but I and MANY others do, because we have to deal with the shit shows at our Dealers trying to get these QC issues resolved.

There's been quite a few members of this site who have Lemon'd their S550's... There's also many who have had to deal with sub-par repairs of which only has to be addressed again, or MULTIPLE times because the Ford Service Center can't resolve the issue or concern.

When is it "right" to initiate a Class Action suit?

I'm sure others would agree that the S550 suffers from a shit load of QC issues - some minor or "whiner" issues, but many with legitimate major issues...

Oh and yes, my upper seat cooling sucks as well in both seats.... Found that out just the same as others, with the exterior temps getting into the 80's-90's and hoping for a cooled seat. If you pre-cool the car first with the AC, the seats are a little better, but after prolonged use, it's almost as if there is no cooling from the seat backs...

TSB or not - the Ford Engineering Team should be working such concerns to come up with a better solution, rather than just (1) TSB where the fix is not correcting the issue for many. If the TSB is not correcting the issue, then they should continue to work the problem until there IS a definitive fix that WORKS.

 

[ctlaw]

That's looking more like an individual suit or lemon law-type claim.

Class actions work best when there no difference between the damages suffered or relief sought by the members of the class.

A waste of time because why, because it's only for (1) addressable item?

How about a Class Action with a freaking list of Quality Control issues since the inception of the S550 - and we're not just talking the "base" models, or those under the average $30k-$40k purchase threshold - these QC issues affect even the Shelbys, where some people have paid in excess of $70k - for a vehicle that everyone is finding out is plagued with MANY Quality Control issues. Issues that should have NEVER made it to the end of the production line.

When can WE hold Ford responsible?

Why am I as an owner of a brand new vehicle having to spend exhorbitant amounts of my time bringing my brand new car back to the Dealer to deal with the MANY QC issues outlined on this very forum?

Hell, I shouldn't have to know any Ford CSR by name, email address and office phone number - but I and MANY others do, because we have to deal with the shit shows at our Dealers trying to get these QC issues resolved.

There's been quite a few members of this site who have Lemon'd their S550's... There's also many who have had to deal with sub-par repairs of which only has to be addressed again, or MULTIPLE times because the Ford Service Center can't resolve the issue or concern.

When is it "right" to initiate a Class Action suit?

I'm sure others would agree that the S550 suffers from a shit load of QC issues - some minor or "whiner" issues, but many with legitimate major issues...

Oh and yes, my upper seat cooling sucks as well in both seats.... Found that out just the same as others, with the exterior temps getting into the 80's-90's and hoping for a cooled seat. If you pre-cool the car first with the AC, the seats are a little better, but after prolonged use, it's almost as if there is no cooling from the seat backs...

TSB or not - the Ford Engineering Team should be working such concerns to come up with a better solution, rather than just (1) TSB where the fix is not correcting the issue for many. If the TSB is not correcting the issue, then they should continue to work the problem until there IS a definitive fix that WORKS.

 

[Darko66]

Final version of intake attachment

Well I was hoping for a more streamlined and elegant solution, but it's at least simple and somewhat adaptable.

I decided to give up on my original idea of attaching it onto the existing deflector since it just made it bulkier and it was a pain trying to zip tie it on. So, ended up with a design that will just screw on using the deflector's attachment points (a hook and 2 screws).

In an attempt to not have too much of a bulge in the back of the seat and out of necessity due to the limited clearance under the seat, I opted to go with three 3/4" ID tubes that are each 36" long. That length is enough to get the tubes to the front of the seat. I was hoping to do it with only two, but it seemed to be too restrictive. Any 3/4" ID tube should work, but I opted for pond tubing because it's corrugated (yet still fairly smooth inside) and although not as flexible as I'd like, flexible enough. I was worried that non-corrugated tubing would kink, so didn't try any. I considered the blue conduit that the F-150 guy used for his fix, but it seemed too rigid for our restrictive space. I tried non-split wire loom which I liked, but the airflow across the corrugation resulted in a not-so-subtle whistling.

I don't have one of Ford's sock modified versions, so I can only make some assumptions as to pros/cons of this addition vs. theirs. Since I can't test it side-by-side, I can't be sure there's an advantage and only assume so based on assumptions about their fixes limitations.

Pros: Intake hoses won't kink and are able to draw in sufficient air for the fan to operate at max output. Hoses extend out past the bottom seat cooler exhaust to the front of the seat to breath in cooler air.

Cons: Less elegant – back of seat will not be smooth when closed up. Additional cost plus need to self install. Pond tubing has slight rubber odor.

My experience with the attachment has been positive. It doesn't provide amazing performance, because it's still limited by the cooling unit's abilities, but it does provide actual sustained cooling.

So, the point of all this is to see if anyone wants me to produce this intake only part for them. I'm still trying to figure out if adding an exhaust option is helpful.

Keep in mind that you would likely need to remove the blower unit from the seat. Although I think it's possible to install it w/o removing it, it would require some dexterity and a small or flexible enough screwdriver to get to the screws. Either way you would need a Torx T6 screwdriver.

I would produce only the plastic attachments and you would be responsible for getting your own tubing. The pond tubing I'm leaning toward I got from Home Depot. It comes in a 20ft roll, which is enough for both seats. I tried some from Amazon that was cheaper at the time, but one of the pieces I cut seems to have wilted in the heat of the car. It's a little thinner and more flexible, so I was hoping it would work out, but I guess not.

Not sure of the forum rules, so hopefully not going afoul of them. Just to give you a rough idea of cost, if you got the same tubing as I did, you'd probably need to spend around $40 plus tax to do both seats. That would include two of the attachments from me plus a roll of tubing. It wouldn't be much cheaper to only do one seat due to postage and the need to buy the 20ft roll.

If there's interest, I suppose I'll figure out a way to facilitate and provide guidance.

Thanks

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