BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[Condor1970]

INTERESTING RESULT:

Today I did my 10,000mi oil change. I have 6,600 miles on the previous oil change of PUP 5w30 and 1 bottle of Ceratec. I switched to QSUD 5w30, because it's very similar oil made by Shell. Added 10qts, and started the car. Now, prior to the oil change, the car was completely silent with no ticking. So, in theory, if it was mechanical parts clacking together to cause the tick, the plating of the Ceratec "should" have provided some assistance in quieting the tick, even though I changed the oil.Especially since Ceratec supposedly provides protection for up to 30,000k.

Well, that's not the case. The tick returned instantly within less than a minute as the oil started warming up, and the tick was exactly the same loudness and frequency as before. Very noticeable in my garage. The tick behaved just like it did before I used Ceratec. It would be quiet when cold and become very noticeable as the engine and oil warmed up.

As an experiment, I thought I would add a very small amount of Ceratec to see what affect it would have. So, I have a sample cup and measured out only 50ml of the total 300ml bottle. After pouring it in, the tick instantly went away. I even pourde it in while the engine was idling. It was like instant magic. Just that tiny amount in a whole 10 quarts of oil made that super loud tick suddenly vanish. To me, this is more than enough evidence based on my observations that it isn't so much the super lubricity of the hBn, but instead the affect the solid lubricant has on the oil itself to prevent flashing/bubbling and making noise.

I'm going to drive it for a while, and listen closely to see if it continues to work with such a small amount.

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[GT Pony]

INTERESTING RESULT:

Today I did my 10,000mi oil change. I have 6,600 miles on the previous oil change of PUP 5w30 and 1 bottle of Ceratec. I switched to QSUD 5w30, because it's very similar oil made by Shell. Added 10qts, and started the car. Now, prior to the oil change, the car was completely silent with no ticking. So, in theory, if it was mechanical parts clacking together to cause the tick, the plating of the Ceratec "should" have provided some assistance in quieting the tick, even though I changed the oil.Especially since Ceratec supposedly provides protection for up to 30,000k.

Well, that's not the case. The tick returned instantly within less than a minute as the oil started warming up, and the tick was exactly the same loudness and frequency as before. Very noticeable in my garage. The tick behaved just like it did before I used Ceratec. It would be quiet when cold and become very noticeable as the engine and oil warmed up.

As an experiment, I thought I would add a very small amount of Ceratec to see what affect it would have. So, I have a sample cup and measured out only 50ml of the total 300ml bottle. After pouring it in, the tick instantly went away. I even pourde it in while the engine was idling. It was like instant magic. Just that tiny amount in a whole 10 quarts of oil made that super loud tick suddenly vanish. To me, this is more than enough evidence based on my observations that it isn't so much the super lubricity of the hBn, but instead the affect the solid lubricant has on the oil itself to prevent flashing/bubbling and making noise.

I'm going to drive it for a while, and listen closely to see if it continues to work with such a small amount.

I highly doubt 50 ml of Ceratec added to 10 quarts of oil is going to change the cavitation properties of the oil. As shown by cavitation experiment papers, the Coyote tick does not follow how cavitation behaves with bearing RPM and oil viscosity - it behaves opposite of what the experiments showed.

It's an interesting experiment, but you did change brand of oil which adds an unknown.

You going to just run it with the small 50 ml dose and see how it sounds as miles add up?

 

[Jetnoise]

I highly doubt 50 ml of Ceratec added to 10 quarts of oil is going to change the cavitation properties of the oil. As shown by cavitation experiment papers, the Coyote tick does not follow how cavitation behaves with bearing RPM and oil viscosity - it behaves opposite of what the experiments showed.

It's an interesting experiment, but you did change brand of oil which adds an unknown.

You going to just run it with the small 50 ml dose and see how it sounds as miles add up?

Maybe the cavitation theory is all together fubar.
How would the oil brand change tighten up his loose rods?
Personally I'd pull a few plugs and take a peak.
Ford is still approving short block replacements on cars that tick

 

[GT Pony]

Ford is still approving short block replacements on cars that tick

They are? I thought Ford's SSM on the typewriter tick stopped any warranty fix on the ticking.

 

[Jetnoise]

I know of an owner who got approval last week. Ticked real good. Was tick related to approval and need for new shortblock? No but it ticked.

 

[Top_Notch]

My theory is that due to excessive clearance the rods clatter in lateral direction. When some lateral force is applied to the crankshaft via the clutch/flywheel, it is pushed every so little in lateral direction so the rods cannot clatter, because they cannot move freely anymore.

Exactly. Excessive rod side clearance. Torque thrust the crank and the rod clearance diminishes and so does the tick.

 

[Jetnoise]

Exactly. Excessive rod side clearance. Torque thrust the crank and the rod clearance diminishes and so does the tick.

50ml of ceratec influences end play?

 

[Jetnoise]

I don't have the tick....yet.
So if the car is idling and ticking away and you let out the clutch in 1st gear the tick goes away?
I would think you'd produce a change in end play with that and tick would disappear too.
Condor does your car's tick go away with a load on the drivetrain?

 

[GT Pony]

Maybe the cavitation theory is all together fubar.
How would the oil brand change tighten up his loose rods?

If it's caused by parts banging together, no oil or oil additive is actually "tightening up" the clearances between the parts. The tick seems to be affected by the friction level between the parts, and for some reason less friction doesn't "excite" the parts to shift around as much, and/or the oil formulation/additives add some cushioning effect between the parts when they do collide. I haven't been tracking on what oils guys have used on the same ticking engine, but it would be interesting if someone used an oil that was very heavy formulated with Moly, which should have friction.

When you think about the gyrations the rods go through as the crankshaft spins around, it could be many factors that might make them shift back and forth on the journals - they are 100% free floating on the Coyote. It's even possible if something is causing the rods to slide on the journal, that even rods with side clearances in spec could be excited somehow to bang around under certain conditions. That could be why some tick more or louder than others, depending on how much rod side clearance there is.

 

[GT Pony]

Condor does your car's tick go away with a load on the drivetrain?

One characteristic of the tick is that guys have reported the ticking comes and goes when a slight load is put on the engine by engaging the AC compressor. The same thing could also be verified by manual putting a slight load on the drive line I would think. This issue is hard to trouble-shoot because not all cars tick, and the ones that do seem have different characteristics.

 

[Condor1970]

No, the tick stays and follows engine rpm randomly as it increases. Even if it was the lubrication, how would only 50ml make it stop instantly? I couldn't believe such a tiny amount had such a big effect.
Whatever it is, must not be a very big clearance issue if that's all it took to quiet it down. Just like when Ford would add just a tiny bottle of XL-17, and it just magically stops.
I honestly don't know what to think. Especially after Pro5.0 measured all the rod ends, and eveything was well within spec.

 

[GT Pony]

I honestly don't know what to think. Especially after Pro5.0 measured all the rod ends, and eveything was well within spec.

Yeah me too ... like said, it's a very hard issue to trouble-shoot. Could be even engines with rod side clearance within spec towards the high end might tick some given the right conditions. I know some engines were reported here to have rod side clearances outside of specs, and it could be they ticked more and louder than engines with rods within spec. There is no "smoking gun" at this point that points to a sure cause.

I still lean towards parts clearance as the cause, and those moving parts are affected by the oil friction level. It doesn't harm anything as Ford says, just makes noised. Rod ends slapping together won't cause any undue wear or long term issues. Cavitation on the other hand can be very damaging to relatively soft journal bearings, and Ford in their SSM about the typewriter tick says the ticking isn't harmful which would again point away from cavitation which can lead to long term bearing erosion (research the subject).

 

[accel]

I have generously added MOS2 from liqui moly to my ticking engine with zero impact on the tick. So saying friction modifiers in general help is not true.

The only 99% working additives are ceratec, xl7 and black carbon powder.

 

[GT Pony]

I have generously added MOS2 from liqui moly to my ticking engine with zero impact on the tick. So saying friction modifiers in general help is not true.

The only 99% working additives are ceratec, xl7 and black carbon powder.

Maybe it has more to do with parts cushioning than the friction level ... ??

 

[Condor1970]

Maybe it has more to do with parts cushioning than the friction level ... ??

That kinda-sorta falls into the same category. They are all solid lubricants, and even molybdenum would provide physical "cushioning" with parts bumping into each other. Especially when added liberally like accel said. For the life of me, I have no idea how such a small amount of Boron had such a big effect. Molybdenum has little to no effect, yet pure Carbon and dirty oil does. And everyone knows pure carbon and dirty oil has much less lubricity than Moly.

Here's one that will rack your brain. Some guy on YouTube was running PUP 5w30 and still had the tick, So, he added a bottle of Rislone Concentrate, and the tick went away. Then, after his next oil change, he said even a month later the tick is still gone. This really blows my mind, since Rislone is mainly just detergents to help clean and loosen stuck lifters and injectors. That one is a real head scratcher.

UPDATE: 2 hours later after getting to work, I noticed the tick is actually still there. But very slight, and not very loud at all.

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