Do you regret choosing your power adder?

[Forestlump]

which is why I scratch my head why anybody throws 10 grand or more at something that has a useful life of 10 seconds or why not everybody derates their compression down to 8 something so the motor actually has a chance.

Your own money and all that. I'm actually surprised there isn't a loud chorus of "going FI was the biggest waste of time and money".

Definetly, I would save my money having done it, it is a waste really. The car was better standard, atleast the chassis could handle the power then.

Running the high compression with boost is all backwards, useful power for a few seconds only, kills cats from running so much retard, I can only imagine what the exhaust valves are going through! Stupidly rich to fend off melting everything. So much waste and inefficiency. It hurts my OCD.

All comes down to how much inefficiency you are willing to accept.

And tbh, the result isn't even that great. 800+hp sounds mental but in a 2 tonne car, it's not all that. A standard Turbo S would pin it.

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[engineermike]

But then what do you use to cool the water?
Air again!

All you've done is add another system in the loop. Air to water to air again, that adds another heat exchanger, pump, tank, hoses at the minimum, more if it's a chiller one. All extra weight over the front wheels, the last place the Mustang needs it.

Did you see the log data posted showing how rapidly the charge temps rise with air/air vs water/air? It is not the same (not counting Roush).

 

[Forestlump]

Did you see the log data posted showing how rapidly the charge temps rise with air/air vs water/air? It is not the same (not counting Roush).

Yes agreed, Air to water does work better in the constraints of a PD set up. Or in a tractor like where air to water charge coolers are most commonly used. But there's better ways of doing it in a car where you have oodles of high speed air going in the front.

You can cool any charge air ofcourse but there's always going to be a cost, weight being the penalty.

A better way is generate less heat in the first place, higher supercharger efficiency.

 

[Wolfys11]

I could spin stock on "upgraded" tires at any rpm in 1st gear.
I now have bolt ons cam e85 with a drag tire and it spins at the high rpms.

I think it would destroy a stock tire at any rpm. So I have no idea how you are making 650whp and not fully spinning in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd

Im a manual, with no pp, i spin 2nd only at high rpm and its so minor i hardly feel it

for the record, first gear??? Unless ur drag racing at a drag strip, you cant seriously be talking about first gear being used for anything more than getting going from a stop, if you wanted a fast car from 0 on the street, get awd

are you 650whp on auto with e85? Cuz im past 650 with pump gas, and my car hardly spins with drag springs, and you cant make the argument ur 900whp car spins so mine should too being 250whp less

 

[engineermike]

A better way is generate less heat in the first place, higher supercharger efficiency.

True except that you’re still stuck with the heat of compression either way, and all the modern superchargers have reached roughly the same polytripic efficiency.

 

[Wolfys11]

Did you see the log data posted showing how rapidly the charge temps rise with air/air vs water/air? It is not the same (not counting Roush).

I did see it but i still think theres more at play with your data than what your saying

centri is notorious for heat effeciency, and any and all pd are known for heat soak

i couldnt tell ya whats wrong with the data that shows your story, but id need more data to believe it

ive seen a youtuber gt500 whipple swap making 1200 blow the motor cuz his temps went from 140 to 240, after one and a half pulls. Ive never heard of any ess setup on our cars even care about heat after all day racing sessions

 

[robvas]

Yes agreed, Air to water does work better in the constraints of a PD set up. Or in a tractor like where air to water charge coolers are most commonly used. But there's better ways of doing it in a car where you have oodles of high speed air going in the front.

You can cool any charge air ofcourse but there's always going to be a cost, weight being the penalty.

A better way is generate less heat in the first place, higher supercharger efficiency.

You know the fast drag race guys use air to water right?

this thread is getting stupider and stupider

 

[Wolfys11]

You know the fast drag race guys use air to water right?

this thread is getting stupider and stupider

Im gonna say it again. NOT EVERYONE IS DRAG RACING FOR A 10 SECOND PULL

Street wise water is great but not great for many reasons

a big enough air cooler is going to cool faster than a water system as water will retain the heat

they use water because its compact, and cuz for a 10 sec pull, the water wont even heat up compared to the air

 

[Nawsad123]

I agree, I went Paxton 2200sl (vortech JT)
Id say it's still not big enough, more than enough boost with a small pulley but you are off the best efficiency on the compressor map by then and just making heat.

Looking at the ESS kits, they are better imo. Impeller is way more efficient and a lower loss intercooler than the vortech/Paxton kits.

Don't get me wrong, you can make big power with any brand for a few seconds, centri or pd but it's how quickly it builds heat and starts to lose power thats going to be different. The centri's, especially ESS that have the weight and efficiency advantage of any supercharger.

Pd for me was a definite no from the start, these cars are already too heavy on the front and high compression, boost and heat is all stacked against the car being repeatedly fast. Different if you are drag racing and only need it to work for 10 seconds but on a track or road course, PD is useless.

Id buy ESS if I get another Mustang hands down.

Doesnt the JT put out close to 800ish rwhp? My baby v3 does 650 and adding race fuel (c85) is what got me to 720 rwhp....

 

[robvas]

Doesnt the JT put out close to 800ish rwhp? My baby v3 does 650 and adding race fuel (c85) is what got me to 720 rwhp....

This guy made 900

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/2019-gt-w-vortech-v3-jt-and-3-12-pulley-on-e85-dyno.140419/

 

[Forestlump]

True except that you’re still stuck with the heat of compression either way, and all the modern superchargers have reached roughly the same polytripic efficiency.

I disagree there, Efficiency varies by compressor design and speed/load. Chuck on a small pulley and although you get more boost and power, you are actually at a lower efficiency meaning a lot more power has been consumed to achieve it. Energy can't be destroyed, only transferred so where did it go? It turned in to heat.

You cant compare all the brands maximum polytropic or Adriatic efficiencies. It's not that simple, you have to keep the blower in the sweet spot to achieve those and many if not all blowers have smaller pullies on, putting them way outside the mark.

PDs make more power down low because that's their highest peak in efficiency. That's not where I want my peak. I don't want power under 4500rpm, that's only for cruising and tickover.

look at a pd Dyno Vs boost, youl see it dropping off towards the end no matter what brand, it's the flaw of that design. But if you want all out low rpm torque, that wears gearboxes/ drive train and smokes tires, itl do that for you.

fit a smaller pulley and now you're really pushing the limits of usefulness, your peak is now even lower in the rev range. Although you've gained another 40whp, you are generating a shit load more heat for the intercooler/ engine to deal with in terms of a square route I imagine. Hence the requirement for crazy chiller coolers and such for PD cars. Again all added weight to the front of the car or additional parasitic loss through the crank pulley from driving the alternator and or AC compressor, a weak point on the coyote so best to not go there.

If you need it to work for 10 seconds only then fine, you can let it all dissipate before the next run or fill the airbox with ice or what ever but imagine doing a 12 lap race! Totally useless.

 

[robvas]

look at a pd Dyno Vs boost, youl see it dropping off towards the end no matter what brand, it's the flaw of that design. But if you want all out low rpm torque, that wears gearboxes/ drive train and smokes tires, itl do that for you.

Show me where "the boost drops off towards the end"

 

[Wolfys11]

Show me where "the boost drops off towards the end"

This argument is really becoming tiresome

if a pd is the best low end, best top wnd, best thermal effecient, using the best water cooled system, and is still cheaper than turbos, why on gods green earth would anyone buy anything around 10k other than a whipple?

unless you want to spend 5k on an entry level ess, everyone would buy a 10k whipple that “does it all the best”

unless of course, maybe its not the best top end, nor the best heat effecient? Food for though that maybe if theres even a debate of which to go, that the whipple CANT be the best at everything just cuz u throw out one dyno with no emphasis on what it means and whats done to it

knowing what ur showing so far, youd show a killer chiller pd and claim “thermal effecencies”

 

[Forestlump]

Show me where "the boost drops off towards the end"

That is a fantastic Dyno, who's ever it is. However 18psi all the way to just shy of 9000rpm is a little out of my price range considering I want my engine to do this for more than a few seconds.

I think that's the point being made here!

 

[robvas]

This argument is really becoming tiresome

if a pd is the best low end, best top wnd, best thermal effecient, using the best water cooled system, and is still cheaper than turbos, why on gods green earth would anyone buy anything around 10k other than a whipple?

unless you want to spend 5k on an entry level ess, everyone would buy a 10k whipple that “does it all the best”

unless of course, maybe its not the best top end, nor the best heat effecient? Food for though that maybe if theres even a debate of which to go, that the whipple CANT be the best at everything just cuz u throw out one dyno with no emphasis on what it means and whats done to it

knowing what ur showing so far, youd show a killer chiller pd and claim “thermal effecencies”

Nobody is saying 'Whipple is the best'. I don't know what you're going on and on about. I just replied to someone who said the boost drops towards the top.

Anyway, this is the 'fastest' list from the drag racing sub-forum, it's out of date but take a look:

Centri - 2
PD - 5
Turbo - 5

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