Who else is Manual or Bust?

[CrashOverride]

I'm in the "or bust" crowd no matter what the car is (Trucks/SUVs are "Exempt"). I'm not going to argue the manual is better or worse than an automatic, because they are both great transmissions, just for different people. Just like there are 2 door and 4 door versions of many cars (Or similar cars a'la the Charger/Challenger). But for me, and my money, I won't buy an automatic sports car. Yes, it is getting harder to find them unfortunately, but that just makes it easier to buy a car. Not that I could afford it, but I was seriously excited about the C8 up until they said it is a two-pedal vehicle. No thanks. I like the C63 AMG Black as well, but no manual, so no thank you. I know that some exotics are eschewing manuals and again, not that I could afford them, but even if I could, I would avoid them.

But, may I ask the ones that despise the manuals, what if your car of choice didn't come in a color you liked? Would you still buy it? Yeah, you could get it painted at a great expense (Just like retrofitting a manual for sure). For me, after buying more than 30 cars, I am always happier with the manuals. That's why I don't bother with anything else now.

My desire for a manual is not based on any perceived supremacy other than my personal enjoyment. Automatics can shift faster, multiply torque, launch better are always more consistent, easier to drive, allow 2 hands to be on the wheel 100% of the time, can usually support more torque, don't have synchros to wear out, less NVH... the list goes on and on. I would imagine most of the gear-rowers here aren't going to try and argue that manuals are somehow "better" other than making us happier.

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[Eritas]

All transmissions "multiply torque". That's their inherent function.

It's interesting to see so many people put F150 intake manifolds on their GTs to improve low end torque (more like an LS motor) because people don't want to downshift to put the 5.0 in it's powerband in order to feel the power. It's also funny to see so many people demand rev-matching transmissions because they don't want to learn how to heel-toe. And yet so many of these hypocrites demand manuals.

 

[Tomster]

When the new GT500 (and possibly the GT350) with the 7Speed DCT beome more prevalent
and start showing up on tracks around the country, I wonder how long the "manual or bust"
crowd will hold out when they consistently find themselves in the "runner up" position.

I don't think anyone is going to change. The "manual or bust" crowd are all legends in thier own mind. I'm a purist, however I appreciate the new technology. I'll have one of each, please.....

 

[CrashOverride]

All transmissions "multiply torque". That's their inherent function.

It's interesting to see so many people put F150 intake manifolds on their GTs to improve low end torque (more like an LS motor) because people don't want to downshift to put the 5.0 in it's powerband in order to feel the power. It's also funny to see so many people demand rev-matching transmissions because they don't want to learn how to heel-toe. And yet so many of these hypocrites demand manuals.

True, but only a torque converter has a stator that internally (e.g. in the converter, which is not in the manual) multiplies torque. No fluid coupling (e.g. a DCT) = no "internal" torque multiplication.

I'll say this tongue-in-cheek, but technically overdrive divides torque (Or multiplies it by a < 1.00 number). In either case, no matter what the transmission does, it's more than made up with by further multiplication by the final drive

 

[Eritas]

True, but only a torque converter has a stator that internally (e.g. in the converter, which is not in the manual) multiplies torque. No fluid coupling (e.g. a DCT) = no "internal" torque multiplication.

I'll say this tongue-in-cheek, but technically overdrive divides torque (Or multiplies it by a < 1.00 number). In either case, no matter what the transmission does, it's more than made up with by further multiplication by the final drive

Yes but to counter: most performance automatics have locking torque converters, so the only time they are in use is starting and stopping. Agreed overdrives divide torque.

 

[CrashOverride]

Yes but to counter: most performance automatics have locking torque converters, so the only time they are in use is starting and stopping. Agreed overdrives divide torque.

Yeah it surprises me how fast OEMs are locking them up nowadays. However, if you are at the dragstrip, and have some sticky meat's on the back and stand on the transbrake (Or break pedal for us old guys) then you do get a substantial torque multiplication off the line, as well as pre-loading the gears which is helpful for the longevity of the drivetrain. Also works great for building instant boost on turbo cars. With manuals the best we got is a two-step, but I'm still happiest with my manual. I don't take it to the strip, so it's not a big deal to me.

The torque advantage however is also (I think) being reduced as even when not locked up, a lot of modern converters have a fairly low stall speed.

 

[V00D00]

When the new GT500 (and possibly the GT350) with the 7Speed DCT beome more prevalent
and start showing up on tracks around the country, I wonder how long the "manual or bust"
crowd will hold out when they consistently find themselves in the "runner up" position.

Wont change much, just more "excuses", like the "stock for stock mines better" times or 'must be on roids" or if i had that many free hours to practice, id be that good too" etc etc

 

[Hack]

Shifting at all, since 3rd gear has enough torque and is long enough to not need to downshift or upshift on most canyon roads/legal speed limits.


In that case, you don't need 700hp and 200hp will deliver the same amount of "Fun"/shifts when driving on the street legally.

If you just want to shift and have fun, buy any given manual. As I said before, my 435hp Mustang is more than enough power for driving on the street and I get to have "fun" shifting it. So a manual 700hp GT500 is not necessary whatsoever.

Why are you even using the word "necessary" when discussing fun, sporty cars? It doesn't apply. Our cars are all about fun and what we want, not what we need.

When the new GT500 (and possibly the GT350) with the 7Speed DCT beome more prevalent
and start showing up on tracks around the country, I wonder how long the "manual or bust"
crowd will hold out when they consistently find themselves in the "runner up" position.

There's always someone faster. I encountered a turboed G body on the freeway last summer. It was much faster than my car. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy a G body or turbo my car. I don't see faster cars being around as a reason to give up on having fun.

Again - I'm all about fun, not necessarily being the fastest.

Not that I could afford it, but I was seriously excited about the C8 up until they said it is a two-pedal vehicle. No thanks. I like the C63 AMG Black as well, but no manual, so no thank you. I know that some exotics are eschewing manuals and again, not that I could afford them, but even if I could, I would avoid them.

But, may I ask the ones that despise the manuals, what if your car of choice didn't come in a color you liked? Would you still buy it? Yeah, you could get it painted at a great expense (Just like retrofitting a manual for sure). For me, after buying more than 30 cars, I am always happier with the manuals. That's why I don't bother with anything else now.

My desire for a manual is not based on any perceived supremacy other than my personal enjoyment. Automatics can shift faster, multiply torque, launch better are always more consistent, easier to drive, allow 2 hands to be on the wheel 100% of the time, can usually support more torque, don't have synchros to wear out, less NVH... the list goes on and on. I would imagine most of the gear-rowers here aren't going to try and argue that manuals are somehow "better" other than making us happier.

Good post. I agree with most of that. I was also excited about the mid engine 'vette until I heard there was no manual transmission. Same with the Supra (although no V8 is a reason for me to avoid a car as well). I'm pretty much V8, manual, RWD or bust.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Shifting at all, since 3rd gear has enough torque and is long enough to not need to downshift or upshift on most canyon roads/legal speed limits.

Just because it's possible to drive it that way doesn't mean you have to drive it that way. But if you choose to just leave it in 3rd and end up being a bit bored as a result, you only have yourself to blame. It's what you make of it.

In that case, you don't need 700hp and 200hp will deliver the same amount of "Fun"/shifts when driving on the street legally.

No, I don't need 700 hp on the street. Doubt I'd ever use it all on the street anyway, no matter what kind of transmission might be fitted behind it. But I might want that much for the track, so I'd buy for the track and find my own ways to live with it on the street. So what if the street driving ends up being no harder than what could be achieved with only 200 hp? The type of transmission isn't going to define that.

If you just want to shift and have fun, buy any given manual. As I said before, my 435hp Mustang is more than enough power for driving on the street and I get to have "fun" shifting it. So a manual 700hp GT500 is not necessary whatsoever.

No 700hp car is necessary, not even for you. 700 hp engines, and Mustangs in general, fall squarely in the 'want' column. Actually, I'd want all of the controls for driving a 700 HP Mustang to work as closely as possible to the way they do/did in all my other MT cars. Then all I'd need do is add the part about learning how to modulate that much more power. "Modulate" might be an important concept . . .


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

When the new GT500 (and possibly the GT350) with the 7Speed DCT beome more prevalent
and start showing up on tracks around the country, I wonder how long the "manual or bust"
crowd will hold out when they consistently find themselves in the "runner up" position.

At HPDE that really doesn't matter.

Keep in mind the flip side, when the DCT crowd runs across a driver in a MT car that they either can't shake or actually have to point by. Count on this happening at least once in a while. As seen from the "under-prepped" side, there's more than a little satisfaction in keeping up with (and occasionally "beating") cars that on paper should be running away and hiding from you. Been there in autocross.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's interesting to see so many people put F150 intake manifolds on their GTs to improve low end torque (more like an LS motor) because people don't want to downshift to put the 5.0 in it's powerband in order to feel the power. It's also funny to see so many people demand rev-matching transmissions because they don't want to learn how to heel-toe. And yet so many of these hypocrites demand manuals.

You'll get no push-back from me on those points.


Norn

 

[Eritas]

Just because it's possible to drive it that way doesn't mean you have to drive it that way. But if you choose to just leave it in 3rd and end up being a bit bored as a result, you only have yourself to blame. It's what you make of it.

On most twisty mountain roads, 2nd gear is too short, and you will unlikely redline in 3rd without greatly breaking the speed limit. So any additional shifting IS unnecessary. Unless you just want to short-shift and upshift for the sake of upshifting. Or, you can buy a lower powered car with shorter gearing to actually be busy and have fun within legal limits on twisty roads.

The point is 435hp is more than enough to be "boring" on the street. 700hp will require even less shifting, so the increase in action/fun of shifting will be even less.

 

[V00D00]

No 700hp car is necessary, not even for you. 700 hp engines, and Mustangs in general, fall squarely in the 'want' column. Actually, I'd want all of the controls for driving a 700 HP Mustang to work as closely as possible to the way they do/did in all my other MT cars. Then all I'd need do is add the part about learning how to modulate that much more power. "Modulate" might be an important concept . . .

Norm

3 questions
1- do you flatfoot/no-lift shift when racing?
2-besides take-off, how much clutch modulating is there?
3- do you understand that "automatic" doesnt mean you dont have to modulate power with the throttle as well?

 

[bdub85]

I for one hope y’all don’t buy one because of no MT option. Makes it easier for me to get one at sticker. Lol

 

[SVT-DADDY]

On most twisty mountain roads, 2nd gear is too short, and you will unlikely redline in 3rd without greatly breaking the speed limit. So any additional shifting IS unnecessary. Unless you just want to short-shift and upshift for the sake of upshifting. Or, you can buy a lower powered car with shorter gearing to actually be busy and have fun within legal limits on twisty roads.

The point is 435hp is more than enough to be "boring" on the street. 700hp will require even less shifting, so the increase in action/fun of shifting will be even less.

My car with over 700whp 3.31 gears and 28.4 tires hits about 105mph in 3rd(might be higher gotta check my logs), and it's an absolute blast to drive on twisty roads in second.

My father in laws C7 Callaway handles better but it's literally always in the wrong gear in those scenarios. I know we are talking more about DCT transmissions here, but in either case I'll shift my car thank you very much.

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