Who else is Manual or Bust?

[Rothgray]

Here is just an FYI for us "manual people". So for you automatic people, this will not interest you until you read the lower section.

Manual Lovers:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/g2161/20-best-cars-with-manual-transmission/

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/best-manual-transmission-cars

https://carfromjapan.com/article/industry-knowledge/percentage-of-manual-cars-in-europe/

For auto lovers:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/clas...over-manual-transmissions-20180710-story.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/09/05/stick-shift-manual-transmission/1131578002/

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/why-americans-hate-manual-transmissions/

Good reads. I do love to manually shift gears in cars that it belongs in, like the GT350, but I could only imagine how much better of a performer it would be with a DCT. I had a chance to drive a PP2 2018 Mustang GT, the MT82 is just hot garbage. I thoroughly enjoyed the manual gearbox in the BMW M4, but felt the DCT made the car come alive much more.

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[waterman]

My apologies sir for my tongue lashing I did think you were building on his "missed the point". I did jump the starting line a bit. Texting is not the best way for anyone to get the point sometimes as misdirection of responses to said parties can be misleading. I am probably just slow.

:-)

Understood. All good.

 

[Hack]

What's so bad about the MT-82? Just curious. I've driven both the MT-82 and the Tremec box, and I didn't hate the MT-82. In fact, I preferred the feel of the MT-82. Are you saying you just didn't like the feel, or did you actually have trouble shifting - some actual problem? I know the MT-82 has a shorter shift, and that can be more difficult to operate for some people. I typically prefer the shorter shift as long as there's a positive engagement.

I read a lot of negative comments about the MT-82 on here, but my experience has been good.

I know people say the MT-82 isn't strong enough, but there are many power adder GTs on the road that are holding up just fine.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Here is just an FYI for us "manual people". So for you automatic people, this will not interest you until you read the lower section.

Manual Lovers:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/g2161/20-best-cars-with-manual-transmission/

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/best-manual-transmission-cars

https://carfromjapan.com/article/industry-knowledge/percentage-of-manual-cars-in-europe/

For auto lovers:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/clas...over-manual-transmissions-20180710-story.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/09/05/stick-shift-manual-transmission/1131578002/

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/why-americans-hate-manual-transmissions/

Interesting indeed.

I'm convinced that 'culture' is the biggest reason for the decline in MT popularity in the USA over the years. If you didn't get to watch your parents or any of your friends' parents "drive stick", it would have remained outside your life experience and you wouldn't be as likely to even consider it when it came around to be your turn to drive and buy cars. At this point in time, we're at least two full generations removed from when the MT take rate was still comparable to the AT take rate, maybe three . . . whatever 60 years or so amounts to.

I've had the pleasure (perhaps agony would be a better fit, at least in the more recent years) of watching this unfold, from the time my Dad drove home in his first automatic transmission car back in 1958. Back then, it was much more of a luxury option than the "necessity" status that ATs seem to enjoy today.


Norm

 

[VoodooPower]

There's far more to "driving" a car than just "shifting". If your only interactions for "driving" a car is the act of shifting, then you're probably not actually DRIVING the car.

In reality, a stock Mustang GT has too much power, too long of gearing, and too much grip to have any fun legally while on the street. A good handling, light car on skinny tires, with little power and short gears that require a lot of shifting to get going is far more interactive and "fun" to drive. It seems like there's a lot of posers who just want to shift when putting around in traffic and call themselves badasses. By all means, go buy something else.

I’m going to take a guess. Do you own and drive a Mazda Miata? If not, tell us what you do own.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Hats off to ya Norm. We all have our opinions. The industry is just going a way that does not resemble yours. I doubt you’ll ever be a dct convert, but I’m sure you’ll try it out.

Thanks, I know I've got a few nonconformist genes from somewhere . . . and no, I don't see myself becoming a DCT convert or choosing to own one as long as the conventional MT is still around. But I can absolutely see myself going with a DCT over any conventional torque-converter automatic if those were to become the only choices. Guess I'll have to see how life plays out from here and how many cycles of car shopping I've got left in me.


Norm

 

[syzygy]

DCT was fun and novel in my M3 for about 6 months or so. Then I missed having the manual. Sold it and bought a '15 Cayman. Love it, still do. Picked up a GT350, loved that too, until the motor seized. Now I would like to buy a 500, but the DCT is what may keep me away. Really want that manual. I know DCT will be easy to launch, but I know where it ends with me... it's just boring in the end..

 

[Eritas]

On the street, why wouldn't you drive all of the cars you commonly drive to roughly the same levels of performance, in accordance with the conditions of the moment, and to at least a reasonable semblance of legality? You'd simply be using relatively less of the Mustang's potential.

Once you start taking the big power, long gearing, and the biggest part of tire grip to the track of your choice, showing it off on the street loses any value it might have had previously. And you can go back to just driving to the conditions of the moment, which could include a lot of shifting or almost none at all.

Norm

"Canyon Carving" in my Mustang GT is pretty boring because as you said, you are not anywhere near the limit of the cars ability on the street, even well above the speed limit. I can leave the car in 3rd for pretty much any fun section of road. That defeats the argument for manuals being more engaging and fun. Now if I were in a Miata, S2000, BRZ, Cayman, etc... They require far more shifting on the same section of road. Now look at a 700hp car on cup 2s. It will be far more boring and the argument for manuals is even less relevant than my regular GT.

I’m going to take a guess. Do you own and drive a Mazda Miata? If not, tell us what you do own.

I use to own a Miata, and have driven and tracked an S2000. Had an M3 and now a manual Mustang GT.

 

[Hack]

"Canyon Carving" in my Mustang GT is pretty boring because as you said, you are not anywhere near the limit of the cars ability on the street, even well above the speed limit. I can leave the car in 3rd for pretty much any fun section of road. That defeats the argument for manuals being more engaging and fun. Now if I were in a Miata, S2000, BRZ, Cayman, etc... They require far more shifting on the same section of road. Now look at a 700hp car on cup 2s. It will be far more boring and the argument for manuals is even less relevant than my regular GT.

I use to own a Miata, and have driven and tracked an S2000. Had an M3 and now a manual Mustang GT.

Lots of canyon carving in Florida? I agree with you that most modern performance cars are too capable to push the limits on public roads. That is as it should be. People should keep their performance driving off public roads as much as possible and keep it on the track.

Even if I'm not "performance driving" on the street, I still think it's fun to shift. Especially in stop and go traffic there are lots of chances to mess with shifting gears.

 

[Norm Peterson]

"Canyon Carving" in my Mustang GT is pretty boring because as you said, you are not anywhere near the limit of the cars ability on the street, even well above the speed limit. I can leave the car in 3rd for pretty much any fun section of road. That defeats the argument for manuals being more engaging and fun.

You're missing the whole point if you feel that driving with a manual transmission is fun only when you're driving it hard. It's not like that at all (though it probably is exactly like that when you're driving an automatic where the easy driving in 'D' is so utterly mindless). You don't need to be racing or canyon-carving to find operating a manual transmission to be engaging or fun. Once you separate the fun & engagement from the measurable performance, you don't have to be driving any more briskly than traffic around you to enjoy it. Maybe not even as briskly in certain situations.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Now if I were in a Miata, S2000, BRZ, Cayman, etc... They require far more shifting on the same section of road. Now look at a 700hp car on cup 2s. It will be far more boring and the argument for manuals is even less relevant than my regular GT.

I use to own a Miata, and have driven and tracked an S2000. Had an M3 and now a manual Mustang GT.

Just because you can get away with shifting less frequently doesn't mean you have to avoid shifting as much as possible. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be open to appreciating the 'where', the 'when', and the 'why' of the shifts that you do make even when there isn't as many of them.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

Lots of canyon carving in Florida? I agree with you that most modern performance cars are too capable to push the limits on public roads. That is as it should be. People should keep their performance driving off public roads as much as possible and keep it on the track.

Even if I'm not "performance driving" on the street, I still think it's fun to shift. Especially in stop and go traffic there are lots of chances to mess with shifting gears.

Nope, have to go up north for fun roads.

Just because you can get away with shifting less frequently doesn't mean you have to avoid shifting as much as possible. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be open to appreciating the 'where', the 'when', and the 'why' of the shifts that you do make even when there isn't as many of them.


Norm

Are you suggesting to shift unnecessarily on a winding road? So you grab a few gears, now you're at 2,000rpm and can't get out of your own way, so then you "get" to downshift?

So it's "fun" to grab gears on the street when going slowly and legally? Then what difference does it make if you have 200, 400, 700hp? You're just going slow regardless.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Are you suggesting to shift unnecessarily on a winding road?

Define "unnecessarily".

So you grab a few gears, now you're at 2,000rpm and can't get out of your own way, so then you "get" to downshift?

I won't even try to put an rpm number on this because it can vary too widely from one situation to another. Let alone between different people, one of whom apparently thinks that any more than the bare minimum amount of shifting any given car needs in a street setting represents too much trouble.

So it's "fun" to grab gears on the street when going slowly and legally?

If you mean 'shift gears", why wouldn't it be? It's all in what you make of it. "Fun" is like that.

If you mean "grab gears" in a drag race sense, that's something else entirely. And that's something I know I'd almost never do even if I had 700 HP on tap to do it with. After once or twice, that'd be filed away as a "been there, done that" memory.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

Define "unnecessarily".

Shifting at all, since 3rd gear has enough torque and is long enough to not need to downshift or upshift on most canyon roads/legal speed limits.

I won't even try to put an rpm number on this because it can vary too widely from one situation to another. Let alone between different people, one of whom apparently thinks that any more than the bare minimum amount of shifting any given car needs in a street setting represents too much trouble.

If you mean 'shift gears", why wouldn't it be? It's all in what you make of it. "Fun" is like that.

If you mean "grab gears" in a drag race sense, that's something else entirely. And that's something I know I'd almost never do even if I had 700 HP on tap to do it with. After once or twice, that'd be filed away as a "been there, done that" memory.

In that case, you don't need 700hp and 200hp will deliver the same amount of "Fun"/shifts when driving on the street legally.

If you just want to shift and have fun, buy any given manual. As I said before, my 435hp Mustang is more than enough power for driving on the street and I get to have "fun" shifting it. So a manual 700hp GT500 is not necessary whatsoever.

 

[Pedal2Metal]

When the new GT500 (and possibly the GT350) with the 7Speed DCT beome more prevalent
and start showing up on tracks around the country, I wonder how long the "manual or bust"
crowd will hold out when they consistently find themselves in the "runner up" position.

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