Whipple or hellion

[HKusp]

Which brings up the NEXT topic/question. If the defoulers artificially reduce the 02 measured signal, then how do they keep the wide bands "calibrated?" I'd imagine that if you were going to use the narrow band sensor as a home base, then it would have to incorporate a reduction value (i.e. if it's expecting a catalytic converter to reduce the O2 content, then the only way it can sense any drift in the front O2's is based upon an anticipated reduced value to the rear.) So if you're tricking or fooling them, then that adjustment factor is probably not spot on or exactly the same. What do the tuners do (previously) if the rear O2's are some sorta calibration check?

If you talk with Mike, you'll see that in his opinion, running no cats isn't very good. He feels like it throws some of the data off that the PCM uses to run the car efficiently. It can be compensated for to a degree, but he feels like it certainly isn't ideal. He runs cats on both of his personal vehicles, albeit, I know at least one is using GT500 cats. Not sure on the other.

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[Angrey]

If you talk with Mike, you'll see that in his opinion, running no cats isn't very good. He feels like it throws some of the data off that the PCM uses to run the car efficiently. It can be compensated for to a degree, but he feels like it certainly isn't ideal. He runs cats on both of his personal vehicles, albeit, I know at least one is using GT500 cats. Not sure on the other.

I typically have learned to defer to Mike's expertise, and I'm curious about learning more about this, but I will say that the vast majority of high horsepower street and non-nhra level competitive builds aren't running catalytic converters and they're all getting it done somehow, and outside of weird classes all of them are running some type of electronic fuel injection and many are running advanced motors with variable timing and wideband systems.

So either the issue is worked around somehow or it's not large enough to present a marked problem.

Motec, Fueltech, Holley, Halltech, AEM, Life Racing, etc, etc. They're all able to create crazy high hp applications without cats.

Maybe the limitation is the factory Ford PCM. I dunno, but even there, plenty of crazy high hp mustang/coyote/predator/voodoo builds running around with no cats.

 

[Ruiner46]

I typically have learned to defer to Mike's expertise, and I'm curious about learning more about this, but I will say that the vast majority of high horsepower street and non-nhra level competitive builds aren't running catalytic converters and they're all getting it done somehow, and outside of weird classes all of them are running some type of electronic fuel injection and many are running advanced motors with variable timing and wideband systems.

So either the issue is worked around somehow or it's not large enough to present a marked problem.

Motec, Fueltech, Holley, Halltech, AEM, Life Racing, etc, etc. They're all able to create crazy high hp applications without cats.

Maybe the limitation is the factory Ford PCM. I dunno, but even there, plenty of crazy high hp mustang/coyote/predator/voodoo builds running around with no cats.

The limitation isn't necessarily the Ford PCM. The real problem is with the EPA muscling in on the tuner manufacturers. They've been bullied into removing the ability to disable FAOSC as it is an emissions feature. So you can't tell the Ford PCM to stop using the rear O2's to calibrate the widebands. If you could disable FAOSC, then you wouldn't need to worry about induced calibration drift from false rear O2 signals. You would just be left with normal wideband drift from age and wear.

 

[Angrey]

The limitation isn't necessarily the Ford PCM. The real problem is with the EPA muscling in on the tuner manufacturers. They've been bullied into removing the ability to disable FAOSC as it is an emissions feature. So you can't tell the Ford PCM to stop using the rear O2's to calibrate the widebands. If you could disable FAOSC, then you wouldn't need to worry about induced calibration drift from false rear O2 signals. You would just be left with normal wideband drift from age and wear.

So it seems like you're knowledgeable, walk us through the process. Do the widebands really "drift" all that much or is it just a protection against aging and then how does the narrow band fix that? Is it simply a reference point with an assumed cat efficiency factor or how does the narrow band re-center the widebands?

 

[Wolfys11]

Does the kit feature some unique bung location/dimension that's different somehow to typical long tube locations?

The reason I was skeptical that it's not turned off is that some guys, even with defoulers STILL get codes. You have to shroud/hide the sensor tip enough to where it can't sample the full stream and therefore sends a reduced signal, which the computer takes as a reduction in 02 content and therefore infers that the catalytic converter is doing it's job and burning off additional combustible materials prior to reaching the rear sensors.

Maybe we're ignoring the obvious, does the exhaust piping featured in the kit already have an inherent "defouler" configuration to it?

That may be the case. But if not, if it's just a typical O2 bung in the typical distance from the fronts, then it's HIGHLY likely it's just disabled in the tune. Again, some guys put the spacers on and it still gives them grief.

Its entirely possible the position of the o2 in relation to the pipe if its higher or lower and the angle of the flow where more flow is in one side of the pipe could cause more or less flow to an o2 sensor, my mini gave me great problems using a catted o2 extension due to some weird flow issue of this is too much, this is too little flow to the o2 sensor. I went through 3 locations and 4 different spacers to get it to now give no cel and pass emissions

 

[Wolfys11]

Which brings up the NEXT topic/question. If the defoulers artificially reduce the 02 measured signal, then how do they keep the wide bands "calibrated?" I'd imagine that if you were going to use the narrow band sensor as a home base, then it would have to incorporate a reduction value (i.e. if it's expecting a catalytic converter to reduce the O2 content, then the only way it can sense any drift in the front O2's is based upon an anticipated reduced value to the rear.) So if you're tricking or fooling them, then that adjustment factor is probably not spot on or exactly the same. What do the tuners do (previously) if the rear O2's are some sorta calibration check?

If cats do something to the flow that the o2 reads, if the o2 is similarly catted and the pipe straight piped, it should somewhat behave how a stock cat would post cat to the sensor anyways

 

[Wolfys11]

If you talk with Mike, you'll see that in his opinion, running no cats isn't very good. He feels like it throws some of the data off that the PCM uses to run the car efficiently. It can be compensated for to a degree, but he feels like it certainly isn't ideal. He runs cats on both of his personal vehicles, albeit, I know at least one is using GT500 cats. Not sure on the other.

I have no idea about this, but the problem with boost+ cats is cat protection, i threw my cats out mainly due to noise, but also for throwing out cat protection protocals. If the exhaust gas temps raise too much, they reduce power by adding more fuel to run rich and cool exhaust temps, causing lower power so typically in a car like ours boosted, a pull in one or two gears will already trigger it

 

[Zrussian13]

Does the kit feature some unique bung location/dimension that's different somehow to typical long tube locations?

The reason I was skeptical that it's not turned off is that some guys, even with defoulers STILL get codes. You have to shroud/hide the sensor tip enough to where it can't sample the full stream and therefore sends a reduced signal, which the computer takes as a reduction in 02 content and therefore infers that the catalytic converter is doing it's job and burning off additional combustible materials prior to reaching the rear sensors.

Maybe we're ignoring the obvious, does the exhaust piping featured in the kit already have an inherent "defouler" configuration to it?

That may be the case. But if not, if it's just a typical O2 bung in the typical distance from the fronts, then it's HIGHLY likely it's just disabled in the tune. Again, some guys put the spacers on and it still gives them grief.

The location is slightly different from oem but the config looks pretty normal. No angles or deeper fitting that would push it out like a defouler. The distance between the fronts and rears is very similar to stock. I'll measure my stock manifolds and compare it to my downpipes when I get a chance. Bare with me, the stockers are buried pretty deep at this point!

 

[Ruiner46]

So it seems like you're knowledgeable, walk us through the process. Do the widebands really "drift" all that much or is it just a protection against aging and then how does the narrow band fix that? Is it simply a reference point with an assumed cat efficiency factor or how does the narrow band re-center the widebands?

I have no data and make no claims to be knowledgeable. Just based on someone else's experience here with trims drifting unless FAOSC is disabled, it makes sense to me that when that feature is making adjustments, it expects cats to be present. I don't know how necessary FAOSC really is. I know that the latest versions of HPTuners and PCMTec have removed the ability to turn off FAOSC. I use an old tune created before we lost the ability to turn it off to get around that problem when I run headers.

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