What oil do you use?

[TheLion70x77]

I believe I've also read that the higher the VI the more VI improves are in the base oil, which means it can shear down faster than oil with less VI improvisers. One thing I've noticed about Valvoline Advances is the VI is a bit lower than other 5W-30 oils, but it's HTHS and Noack is lower than those other oils with a higher VI.

Depends on the base stocks used in the oil. The whole point of the new mPAO's and GTL base stocks is to avoid using polymer viscosity improves as much as possible to get a high viscosity index that remains for the life of the oil. There's a difference between a high VI oil that stays high VI and a high VI oil doped with bulk polymers that shears down to a low VI oil.

If I'm not mistaken, some of the blends on the market now have NO polymer viscosity improvers at all (Red Line, Driven's new mPAO formula and Ravenol's new USVO base oil formula). These oils have almost no permanent shear under extreme conditions. Most of the lower priced PAO's (Mobil 1 Extended Performance) and GTL's (Penzoil Platinum / Ultra Platinum) on the market are very low in polymers, so there's little shear. I have not see any instances of Penzoil shearing down badly. Even in Ecoboost applications it holds up very well and they shear oils like no body's business (know, I had one).

The oils that do contain a decent amount of polymers are off the shelf Group III's like M1 Advanced Synthetic for example. But their extended performance stands out a bit from the rest of their line in that it has a higher percentage of PAO's blended in and high levels of zinc compounds to allow for extended drain intervals (also making it suitable for performance applications because it has to be shear resistant to last 15k miles). I think their Annual protection also has a higher quality PAO base oil blend, but it's uber expensive, as in boutique oil priced. If I recall, the whole reason Dodge went to Penzoil's GTL oils was because they are highly shear resistant without having to pay boutique prices, you get roughly PAO performance at Group III price points.

I do know for a fact that Ravenol's USVO base oil has ZERO polymers. I posted some info on that a while back. However my particular GT started ticking at idle with their 5W-20 after about 1,500 miles so I switched back to MC. The 5W-20 that I used was NOT their USVO formula, it was their older formula as their USVO was not out yet. Never tried their 5W-30. But I'm looking for the best value (meaning the best balance between cost vs. performance) and am now willing to try 5W-30 which allows me to stay with off-the-shelf oils and achieve better protection. It's not just rod bearings, it also piston rings that are lubricated by the oil film, also thicker oils are easier for the control rings to scrape back off, so typically consumption is a bit lower with higher viscosity oils.

I'm not trying to start a this oil is better than that oil debate. If I can't find PUP 5W-30, I have no issue running Valvoline's new 5W-30 as it's also a very good formula (actually used their 5W-30 in my Ecoboost 2.3L Mustang because it was the first Dexos 1 Gen 2 / API SN Plus oil on the market) and has nearly identical viscosity specs to PUP 5W-30 at 100C so it will be a low drag 5W-30 (aka a thinner 5W-30 blend). But I don't have any information on Valvoline's base oil blend in their new formula and I know PUP 5W-30 holds up extremely well so I stuck with that, especially with a $10 rebate per a 5 quart jug going on right now (10 quarts for $33 in a high quality oil like PUP is hard to beat). There are a lot more examples of PUP being used in extreme cases than Valvoline's 5W-30, so I went with what I have more data on.

Getting back to oil blends, case in point is the impressive performance of PUP 0W-40 that is used by the Viper LeMans race team. They actually use off the shelf PUP 0W-40 in their ACR, it is literally the same oil you buy from Penzoil and that comes in Dodge's Hemi 392's, Hell Cats, Demons and Vipers. They do not use a special race blend. That's pretty impressive that an off-the-shelf formula can hold up under 24 hr endurance racing in a 647 hp V10.

Hennessy also uses PU and PUP in all of their cars. They recently broke the world record for a street legal performance car with a top speed at 270 mph. They require it for all of their built big power cars which range from Camaros / Mustangs / Chargers / Challengers to exotics like the Ford GT / Spiders etc. There's a reason these companies are using GTL base oils, because they perform on par with more expensive PAO blends but at a much lower cost.

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[HoosierDaddy]

So were getting thick 20 weights and thin 30 weights that are very close, so close that it makes CAFE irrelevant in any practical sense if you were to test the two oils on the same motor.

So the specific oil used for CAFE testing might matter. Anyone know what they use for 5W20 testing?

 

[TheLion70x77]

So the specific oil used for CAFE testing might matter. Anyone know what they use for 5W20 testing?

They use a PAO synthetic. I don't believe it is any off-the-shelf blend. It is more of a general purpose reference oil with common additive packages, but it does represent a low drag 5W-20 so it is my understanding it's difficult to beat if you want the "resource conserving" approval.

Oils that have high levels of polymers actually perform better in fuel economy tests because of temporary shear. They have some mild compress-ability due to the polymers and that reduces pumping losses and drag losses in the bearings, but also provides less film strength and they suffer permanent shear (aka permanent thinning).

Shear resistant oils like Red Line or Driven for example would have to rely more on their ultra low friction additive package (moly) to compensate for a virtually in-compressible base oil. There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say when it comes for fuel economy.

Temporary Shear - is thinning of an oil base stock due to heat. All oils experience temporary shear.

Permanent Shear - is thinning of an oil base stock due to break down of the polymer thickeners (viscosity improvers), as these polymers "untangle" as a molecular level, the oil has permanent viscosity loss. This is especially a big issue in TDI engines like the Ecoboost.

HTHS - High Temperature High Shear is a condition that simulates the temperatures and pressures that oils see in rod bearings or main bearings. This test is performed at 150C (302F). I found a research paper that indicated you need to sacrifice 25% HTHS viscosity for 5% gain in fuel economy. So there is a point of diminishing returns (in regards to reducing viscosity) and in performance engines, it seems 5W-20's and 5W-30's are right in the sweet spot of balancing protection vs. drag losses.

 

[boB]

For now (break-in) I am using Motorcraft 5w-20. It's hard to go wrong with that, apart from those on this forum 90+% of Mustangs probably get MC 5W-20 at the dealer oil change. After break-in I will probably go with PUP or Mobil1 5W-20.

 

[TheLion70x77]

For now (break-in) I am using Motorcraft 5w-20. It's hard to go wrong with that, apart from those on this forum 90+% of Mustangs probably get MC 5W-20 at the dealer oil change. After break-in I will probably go with PUP or Mobil1 5W-20.

For 2018-2019 MY Mustang GT's the owners manual specifically states 5W-30 is also acceptable (lists it as the "trac spec oil viscosity"). So you could run PUP 5W-20 or PUP 5W-30.

I would avoid M1 unless you go with their Extended Performance which has a high percentage of PAO base oil. M1 EP is a true premium product. Their regular M1 synthetic is nothing special in terms of base oil. Additive package is ok, but UOA's are no better on regular M1 than MC Semi-syn and some times worse (higher iron).

I tried it for one fill over 5,000 miles, boil off rate was no better than MC Semi-syn, engine clatter was similar, maybe a tad noisier on M1. I wasn't impressed.

What I like about the new GTL technology is that it's performance is on par with PAO's but at a much more reasonable price point. It's a proven technology at this point.

GTL Use Cases:

- Hennesey HPE750 2015 Mustang GT, set land speed record (for mustangs) of 207 mph, uses PUP 5W-30 (says right on their website). 2.9L Super Charger (I believe it may be the same Eaton unit in the new GT500, Corvette ZR1 and Camaro ZR1), 774 HP.
- Hennesey Venom GT land speed world record for 2 seater sports cars, 270 MPH. 1,200 HP.
- PUP 0W-40 factory fill on 2014 Viper ACR. 647 HP V10. Also factory fill on the Hemi 392's, Hell Cats and Demon's
- Viper race team actually uses off-the-shelf PUP 0W-40 in their 24-hr Lemans race car, they do NOT use a specialized race blend
- PUP Euro formula is the only approved oil by Ferrari North America
- Performs very well in Ecoboost engines that shear oils (fuel dilution, high shear conditions in the bearings, high heat exposure in the turbos)
- Performs on par and exceeds UOA's with the "boutique" oils
- GTL base stocks perform on par with PAO's but at Group III price points
- 5W-20 and 5W-30 are API SN Plus for LSPI resistance and each meet the respect Ford WSS-M2C945-A (5W-20) and WSS-M2C946-A (5W-30) specs, their regular Platinum, also good and easier to find, meets Dexos 1 Gen 2 AND Ford's B1 specs. Also GTL base oil, just slightly less robust (than Ultra), but still very good additive package.

See attached PDF's for details on GTL base oil technology. I used PUP 5W-20 for one fill when I was testing oils and indeed it performed the best in terms of engine response and fuel economy. Fuel economy is an indicator of power losses as well. If your losses are low while cruising, their lower under WOT which means more power to the wheels. I'm going back to PUP next oil change and moving up to their 5W-30.

Boil off on PUP 5W-20 was a little less than M1 and MC Semi-syn (old formula), but MC Semi-syn's new B1 (API SN Plus) formula (using now) seems to be doing really well on boil off, so I believe their new formula likely has a more robust base oil blend, given it's wide spread use in their Ecoboost TDI engines that are notoriously hard on oil, that makes sense.

If you go with a 5W-30, look for one with a viscosity between 10 to 10.5 cSt @100C. PUP, Valvoline Advanced Synthetic, QSUD and a few others are in that range of "thin" 5W-30's.

 

[boB]

Changed the oil today (at about 500 miles), stayed with Motorcraft 5W-20 for now but will probably use something else at the next change. As noted elsewhere, when the drain plug comes out the oil drains like you have never seen oil drain before!!! I added a temporary cardboard backsplash to my oil drain pan, good idea and I only spilled two drops. Also used aluminum foil around the filter area to keep things clean.

10 quarts brought the level just above the middle of the crosshatch area on the dipstick, good enough.

 

[TheLion70x77]

BTW Ford - Penske - Shell - Penzoil team won the 2018 Drivers and Manufacturers titles: http://www.espn.com/jayski/cup/2018/story/_/id/25316182/ford-wins-drivers-manufacturers-titles
Driver is Joey Logano.

http://www.joeylogano.com/shell-pennzoil-ford-to-carry-mosaic-paint-scheme-in-the-sprint-cup-chase/

mPAO's are not the only high end base stocks being used to push the limits of NASCAR engines and other race car engines. While none of the NASCAR oil formulas are what you buy on the shelves for your street car (way different additive packages), they do use the same base oils. Driven Racing (Lake Speed Jr.) is promoting their mPAO base stocks (I know for a fact Conoco Philips makes mPAO feed stocks as I have a presentation from them on it, so does Exxon Mobil), while Shell is pushing their GTL base stocks. I'm not sure if one is inherently better performing than the other, both are extremely pure and temperature stable. But one is also far more expensive to produce than the other. At some point it's good enough and the differences are negligible.

Personally, as a normal guy who doesn't have endless cash flow, I like the GTL technology because it's performance is similar to mPAO but at a far better price point. There's a reason all of the cars I listed a few posts back use that oil. It performs admirably and without paying out the ear for it. I see no issues running Penzoil Ultra Platinum (or Penzoil Platinum) 5W-20 or 5W-30 for street, drag, auto x and maybe going with their 0W-40 for a HPDE sessions on the stock cooling system for added protection. 5W-20's are indeed motivated more by CAFE standards more than any durability or performance benefits. The drag loss differences between 20 and 30 weights are minuscule, fractions of a percent as are the fuel economy gains. However the film strength is typically 11% to 14% better in a 30 weight, of any base stock, so your giving up substantial protective film strength for a nearly meaningless efficiency gain. It's not just the bearings, HTHS also affect pistons and piston rings as the rings ride on the film. Pistons experience four different lubrication regimes in a single revolution of the crank: boundary layer, mixed, hydrodynamic and elastohydrodynamic, depending on where it's at in it's cycle. So it depends on film strength as much as it does solid lubricant friction modifiers.

And 20 weights are what I call "the starting point of diminishing returns". Going much thinner is more problematic without significant design changes and oil reformulations. Now I'm not suggesting 5W-20's are horrible. They hold up pretty well, but they are at the bottom of the limit of reliability for a performance street car making big power and wear rates and durability under high RPM and high heat conditions is going to be more ideal with 5W-30 and 0W-40. I ran PUP 5W-20 for one oil change to test it, and I can say my fuel economy and engine response was the best of any 5W-20 oil I've tried (MotorCraft, Mobil 1, Ravenol and Penzoil) thus far. It's good stuff and now their Ultra is API SN Plus, so it is LSPI rated finally for the DI guys. They do NOT list the new B1 Ford Spec, but Ford only requires an API licensed oil that meets their viscosity requirements. And it also still lists the older Ford A spec for 2015-2017's.

And for track use, NONE of the 5W-50's on the market make any sense to me. They under perform on the track and break down severely, I just saw a UOA of M1 5W-50 on trackmustangs forum in a Boss 302 and it sheared down 30% in just 2,800 miles....what's the point of using a 50 weight if it ends up a 40 weight just a thousand miles in or even in a single track session...I even seen a few UOA's of MC 5W-50 shearing down as much as 36%. I'd rather just run a stay in grade 0W-40 for HPDE days and get more consistent performance. You could even run 0W-40 on the street because of it's cold flow properties technically exceed the 5W-30, but that's a bit over kill for street use, your temps are going to get high enough to justify the higher viscosity over what a 5W-30 can offer.

I don't see an issue running PUP 5W-30 for HPDE either with an upgraded air to oil cooler. It's all about temperature, keep it cooler and you can run lower viscosity oils. I see no reason why a thermostat controlled Air to Oil cooler on 5W-30 wouldn't be adequate for both street and hard core track use. All of my research has collectively pointed to 5W-30 as being the ideal viscosity (some thanks to GT Pony on that) for the designed clearances of the 5.0 and for most street performance engines. Even heavy duty gas truck applications like the F-350's with the 6.2L are moving back up to 5W-30. It's right in the sweet spot of efficiency vs. protection. Even the new FA-4 Diesel specification for low viscosity heavy duty diesel oils are calling for a HTHS of 2.9 to 3.2 cP, that's the same HTHS spec for SAE 30 weights. All the Ecoboost engines require 5W-30 and their bearing clearances are tighter than the 5.0's...Ford changed the spec for the Australian GT's from 5W-20 to 5W-30 with the latest user manual revision and we know the 2018+ GT's call for 5W-30 for track conditions, up from 5W-20. 2018+ Ecoboost Mustangs call for going up two grades from 5W-30 to 5W-50 (but PUP 0W-40 would outperform all of the current 5W-50's, might be a more viable option).

And for the love...do not say NASCAR when referencing the use of ultra thin oils. Some of the NASCAR teams are pushing 0W-10 now. NASCAR race teams are using mPAO base oils with no detergents (higher concentration of base oil) and tons of anti-wear additives. They also rebuild the entire engine after every race....so those engines last 600 miles and done. Pro Stock drag racers are pushing 0W-5...those engine have to be primed prior to startup and last 4-8 miles. There's a point of diminishing returns and the tolerance requirements go sky high (or should I say insanely small...). NASCAR bearing tolerances are pushing 0.0001 that make super tight clearances possible for their applications (ultra tight clearances and very low viscosity oils require extreme uniformity and very strong cranks, any notable flexing can cause issues and soak up the clearance, causing metal on metal). The oil blends used in NASCAR engines is NOT what's in any of these mass production engines or even available to us for off-road use. So, NASCAR is a BAD example to cite the use of thin oils for performance street car applications. They are simply very different applications. 600 mile life span vs. 150,000 - 250,000 mile life span.

Anyway, I'm becoming a huge fan of PUP (running their 5W-30 now). Look at this from the second link above:

Over in the open wheel world, Penske claimed his 13th IndyCar title with driver Will Power in 2014. Power’s 12,000 rpm V6 twin-turbo engine was protected all season long by the consumer grade Pennzoil Platinum Pure Plus 0W-40 right out of the bottle.

Unlike NASCAR, the 12,000 RPM twin turbo V6 Indy car is using off the shelf Penzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-40 that costs about $5 a quart vs. $11 a quart for an mPAO that performs similar. That's the same thing that the Penske Viper team is doing with their Lemans Viper ACR, running off-the-shelf Penzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-40 in a circuit track race car, one that runs for 24 hours straight. Not a special race blend like NASCAR formulas require (due to flat tappet valve train). Pretty impressive for an oil that costs $5 a quart you can buy at Walmart...that's why I've become a huge fan of it. It performs again and again, we don't have to pay through the roof for it. Ford obviously sees it's benefits in some of their performance applications as their NASCAR team's race oil uses the Pure Plus base stock.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Also wanted to add one last note, if your loosing kinematic viscosity at 100C due to permanent shear, your loosing HTHS viscosity or protective film strength, permanently. So the oil will be even thinner under high heat conditions than it was when it was new. So if your 50 weight looses 30% of it's kv at 100C, it's lost about 15% of it's HTHS viscosity as is no longer providing the protection of a new 50 weight, in fact it only meets 40 weight specs (even if that's still sufficient, it's not what it originally was). KV and HTHS viscosity loss track in an approximate 2:1 relationship, so for ever 2% KV loss, you see about 1% HTHS viscosity loss. See the attachment from Infinium, a major oil additive supplier for all the big names I learned about through Dr. Vladimir Borisov (PhD) of TriboTEX. Take a look at Infium's testing on HTHS viscosity loss relative to kv loss due to polymer break down (hence why mPAO, PAO's and GTL base oils even exist, it's not just cleanliness, it's viscosity loss and temperature stability that are also highly critical). Oil performs cooling, lubrication and hydraulic fluid functions. Viscosity stability is important to lubrication and hydraulic function. Synthetic base stocks have better thermal transfer (higher heat capacity) than conventional, semi-synthetics and traditional hydrocracked group III's. They are more temperature stable and in many cases require no polymer viscosity improves or very little of them, making them highly shear resistant and providing lower viscosity at extremely cold temps while holding their viscosity better at extremely high temps relatively.

 

[TnWHTMARE]

Driven DI-30

 

[TheLion70x77]

Driven DI-30

That's some good oil. But holy crap is it pricey.

 

[TnWHTMARE]

That's some good oil. But holy crap is it pricey.

Its ridiculous. Apparently it contains a gold additive package.

 

[GT Pony]

And for the love...do not say NASCAR when referencing the use of ultra thin oils. Some of the NASCAR teams are pushing 0W-10 now. NASCAR race teams are using mPAO base oils with no detergents (higher concentration of base oil) and tons of anti-wear additives. They also rebuild the entire engine after every race....so those engines last 600 miles and done.

Also, the NASCAR guys are running pretty large and efficient oil coolers to keep oil temperatures down. Keeping the oil to 220 F and below helps keep the viscosity from becoming too thin and helps maintain adequate MOFT and HTHS viscosity for engine protection.

Source: https://www.motorstate.com/oilviscosity.htm

"Engines that run low oil temps require lower viscosity oil. Look at an NHRA Pro Stock engine, a NASCAR Sprint Cup engine and a World of Outlaws 410 Sprint engine. Each engine has a very different operating oil temperature – Pro Stock, 100°F; NASCAR, 220°F and sprint cars, 300°F. All three engines run very different viscosity oils as well − SAE 0W-5, SAE 5W-20 and SAE 15W-50."

 

[TheLion70x77]

Also, the NASCAR guys are running pretty large and efficient oil coolers to keep oil temperatures down. Keeping the oil to 220 F and below helps keep the viscosity from becoming too thin and helps maintain adequate MOFT and HTHS viscosity for engine protection.

Source: https://www.motorstate.com/oilviscosity.htm

"Engines that run low oil temps require lower viscosity oil. Look at an NHRA Pro Stock engine, a NASCAR Sprint Cup engine and a World of Outlaws 410 Sprint engine. Each engine has a very different operating oil temperature – Pro Stock, 100°F; NASCAR, 220°F and sprint cars, 300°F. All three engines run very different viscosity oils as well − SAE 0W-5, SAE 5W-20 and SAE 15W-50."

They are but according to an article from Lake Speed Jr. of Driven, what happens with the car just behind the lead car is the oil temps spike to 280F~300F because the trailing cars are not getting much air flow. Many of them run the entire race or nearly the entire race at those temperatures.

So any cars in traffic are running super hot. Only the lead car or cars away from traffic are running cool. That's why they needed an uber high temperature stable base oil, that changes viscosity as little as possible. I never realized how much drafting affected the radiators air flow.

But to say the least, NASCAR is NOT a good example for a use case of thin oils in street cars if you can about durability. BTW, after switching to PUP 5W-30 from MC 5W-20, I actually got about 1 mpg BETTER fuel economy on the same route under similar conditions (50-60F, 75 mph average speed) just today. I changed over to PUP 5W-30 yesterday. Observe the left most bars as that was the same portion of highway without traffic most of the time. Earlier on in my trip this morning, I got stuck in traffic so fuel economy wasn't as good.

Each bar is a 6 minute interval of the average fuel consumption. So despite the slightly higher fluid drag losses, the anti-friction and anti-wear additive package in PUP 5W-30 actually more than made up for the fluid drag losses and netted about 1 mpg better. Just goes to show that if there was ANY forward thinking behind CAFE, they would focus on increasing reliability AND fuel economy by staying with 30 weights as the norm and focusing more on base oil quality and additive package quality.

Remember also my car is highly modified: Power Pack 2, VelossaTek Ram Air Duct, Oil Catch can, Cat Back Exhaust, TriboTEX, PUP 5W-30 and a really short final drive because I'm running a four square 275/35R19 tires that are 1.1" shorter diamter than the stock 40 series on lightweight wheels. So I have MORE tire up front which increases rolling resistance on sticky Pilot Sport 4S rubber. Between the 4% final drive ratio reduction (due to tire size) and the stickier and wider rubber with the power adder, that's pretty darn impressive for cruising on the highway at 75.

PUP 5W-30 (BTW my average speed was 75 mph, not 70, I hit some traffic right before I took the photo and had to reduce my crusing speed).

MC 5W-20

 

[Nuked]

I have used the MC 5w20, Penzoil Plat 5w30 and Castrol 5w30. Castrol is the only one I don't care for. Ever since I put it in I started getting the typewrite tick at low rpm when cold. Never had that on any of the other oils. This time I am going with M1 0w40 which has been my go to over the years. As long as tick goes away I will likely stick with that.

 

[gstboy69]

Castrol Edge 5W-30

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