Another engine oil thread ... What do you use?

[1380KPOI]

Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W20

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[JennyStang]

Anyone try 0w20?

I’m on royal purple xpr 0w-20. I’ll post the uoa once it gets 10k miles on it

 

[Coyote Red]

I've found the Ford Racing filter to be my go to, it holds another 1/2 qt. oil and the bypass feature is a + as well. I'd try a Fram ultra for the price, I use opmustangs.com Optimum Performance Mustangs for BG fluids & Ford Racing filters on sale for $16.00 at times.

 

[Deleted member 35786]

Walmart Supertech Full Synthetic 5w-20.. No issues or ticks.

 

[Canoman]

I read through this whole thread hoping to find the "results" that @DanielLD promised. Did I miss them?

 

[Schwerin]

I've found the Ford Racing filter to be my go to, it holds another 1/2 qt. oil and the bypass feature is a + as well. I'd try a Fram ultra for the price, I use opmustangs.com Optimum Performance Mustangs for BG fluids & Ford Racing filters on sale for $16.00 at times.

A case of Ford Racing filters from Summit is about $14.50 per filter and has free shipping. Then you have enough for your next 12 changes and saved $1.50 per filter. Thats enough saved to buy a 13th filter.

 

[TheLion70x77]

I've found the Ford Racing filter to be my go to, it holds another 1/2 qt. oil and the bypass feature is a + as well. I'd try a Fram ultra for the price, I use opmustangs.com Optimum Performance Mustangs for BG fluids & Ford Racing filters on sale for $16.00 at times.

Take a look at the FL820 spec sheet from Ford Performance. I doubt you'll find a better suited filter for the 5.0. It has all of the important OE features like silicone anti-drain back valve and CLEAN SIDE bypass unlike all the after market filters that are dirty / filter side bypass. It has literally almost 2x the filter media surface area at 283 sq in. vs the FL-500S at 150 sq in, is rated for 99% eff @ 20 microns vs. 80% eff at 20 microns (or 95% eff at 30 microns) and according to Ford Performance out flows the stock filter substantially (lower pressure drop, so you should see slightly higher oil pressure just switching out the filter): https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/filter-assy-oil-7844745-1

FL-500S is actually a pretty good filter, but there are better options. The FL820 may be double the cost of the FL-500S, but it's not terribly expensive all things considering, I order mine from Summit Racing for $16 as it's only an hour away from my house and arrives quickly. It's a good filter and has the best balance of attributes. When choosing a filter, look at the filter as a whole system instead of just filtration efficiency. Flow matters just as much, as does burst strength, filter capacity and functional features like drain back and bypass.

Yes, it fits my 2016 PP GT just fine as far as clearances. Thread size and gasket are identical to the Fl-500S and FL-820S. The FL-820S is NOT even close to the same filter BTW. It's actually inferior to the FL-500S, it's an old design that Ford keeps around for legacy vehicles.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Case in point, take a look at this:http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/Specsheets/TSB_oil_filter_particle_size.pdf

Now look at Amsoil's EA filter specification for filtration efficiency: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/filters-and-by-pass-systems/oil/amsoil-ea-oil-filters/

98.7% efficiency at 20 microns for the Amsoil EA....FL820 hit 99% efficiency at 20 microns, so they for all practical purposes have the same filtration efficiency. Both Ford and Amsoil report their tests as Multi-pass, so they are comparable. However, the FL820 has far more surface area of the media. The EA is probably pretty close to the FL-500S in media area and likely out flows it a bit given the use of synthetic media, but it's not going to be as substantial as doubling the surface area. The FL820 on the other hand has a massive can comparatively and nearly double the surface area of 283 sq in. vs. the FL-500S at 150 sq in.

Your always giving up something to get something in filters. Want more flow and better filtration? Use a finer more restrictive media, but increase it's raw surface area substantially, then you get both flow and efficiency at the expensive of raw size. That's what Ford Performance did with the FL-820, it's big, it's honkin, but it filters as well as the premium OE replacements while also flowing better. Exactly what you want from a performance car filter for performance applications.

NASCARS' run super fine 7 micron filters because their bearing clearances are so tight and the oil films are so thin, without ultra fine filtration they wouldn't even last the race. They also have external oil tanks and substantial oil coolers. The EA filters are great, I run them on my wife's 2012 Prius C because I don't care about having MORE flow in that application, but I do care about filter efficiency. However on my Mustang, if I can reduce flow restriction in the oil filter, I increase oil pump efficiency which equals more power to the wheels all while maintaining better filtering. Restrictions equal pressure drops, which is lost energy.

Filter limitations is yet another case for slightly more viscous oils in street car applications, performance or daily drivers alike. Thicker films reduce contamination sensitivity = long term reliability. Super thin oil films are very prone to allowing particle wear between the bearing surfaces. If the oil film is thicker, a greater range of particle sizes can pass through the clearances without wedging between the surfaces and causing wear. Everything has an optimal range, so don't take this as more is always better to an endless magnitude, but it's a legitimate benefit.

This is also a good use case for DLC coatings. DLC coating create a highly wear resistant and ultra low friction film over all of the wear surfaces. Not only do you gain benefits in power and efficiency (lower friction losses), but instead of wearing away the metal bearing surfaces, your wearing away the film which can be replaced at regular intervals. That is the concept behind Vapor Deposition DLC coatings, these are factory ultra low friction films applied at the point of manufacture, however once they wear away, the part needs to be either replaced or removed and re-coated which is not very practical. Manufacturers have been using VP based DLC coatings for years in engines, especially high end cars to gain efficiency, but typically it doesn't last the entire life of the engine, it only extends the service life.

That is also the function of zinc compounds, however their service life is very short relatively and they do NOT reduce friction, they only provide a tribofilm that wears away instead of the contact surfaces and their pressure limits are substantially lower than DLC tribofilms. Zinc compounds give your oil that yellow or amber color and have been used in varying formulas since the 1950's when they were first discovered. I believe most oils are now using organic based zinc compounds instead of the traditional ZDDP. They can achieve slightly better wear performance in similar concentrations, which is good since the EPA has severely limited concentrations for the sake of catalyst life span.

 

[GT Pony]

... and according to Ford Performance out flows the stock filter substantially (lower pressure drop, so you should see slightly higher oil pressure just switching out the filter).

Flow matters just as much, as does burst strength, filter capacity and functional features like drain back and bypass.

Keep in mind engine oiling systems use a positive displacement oil pump. So the only time you would ever see any "higher oil pressure" from a less flow restrictive oil filter is if the oil pump was in pressure relief, which hardly ever happens when the oil is at full operating temperature. And if it does happen with hot oil, it's going to be near or at redline RPM.

For 99.9% of normal driving you'll never see any increased oil pressure from a slightly better flowing oil filter. However, a better flowing oil filter will decrease the delta-p across the filter, which will give you more headroom before the filter bypass valve might open up.

 

[GT Pony]

The EA filters are great, I run them on my wife's 2012 Prius C because I don't care about having MORE flow in that application, but I do care about filter efficiency. However on my Mustang, if I can reduce flow restriction in the oil filter, I increase oil pump efficiency which equals more power to the wheels all while maintaining better filtering. Restrictions equal pressure drops, which is lost energy.

The flow restriction across most oil filters with hot oil and at max oil pump output (which is around 6 to 10 GPM max for a high performance OEM engine) is in the neighborhood of only 5 to 8 PSI. The flow restriction of a typical oiling system is around 10 to 15 times more than the flow restriction of the oil filters.

If you calculate the hydraulic pump HP required to flow oil through the oiling system at X PSI and Y GPM, and then calculate the required hydraulic HP just for the oll filter, you'll realize the amount of HP difference between a filter with 4 PSI of delta-p compared to a filter with 6 PSI of delta-p at the same flow conditions is so small that it probably couldn't even be measured on any kind of dyno. And engine isn't going to notice the difference at all.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydraulic-pumps-horsepower-d_1464.html

On-line hydraulic HP calculator: http://www.metaris.com/hydCal/HP.asp

 

[TheLion70x77]

Keep in mind engine oiling systems use a positive displacement oil pump. So the only time you would ever see any "higher oil pressure" from a less flow restrictive oil filter is if the oil pump was in pressure relief, which hardly ever happens when the oil is at full operating temperature. And if it does happen with hot oil, it's going to be near or at redline RPM.

For 99.9% of normal driving you'll never see any increased oil pressure from a slightly better flowing oil filter. However, a better flowing oil filter will decrease the delta-p across the filter, which will give you more headroom before the filter bypass valve might open up.

Positive displacement pumps ensure fluid flow is constant IF there is no pressure loss path (a closed and pressurized system) and consequently pressures change after each restrictive element in the system. So it would make perfect sense that if the oil pressure sensor is after the oil filter any changes in the oil filter restriction would show up in your oil pressure gauge, more restriction results in a lower pressure reading (aka higher pressure drop), lower restriction results in a higher pressure reading (aka less pressure drop across the filter).

Obviously changes in oil viscosity due to temperature will also show up in the oil pressure reading. Cold fluids are more viscous and result in a higher pump pressure until they heat up and thin out. Unless of course the pressure sensor is before the oil filter, then you would be blind to any pressure drop changes caused by the filter and you would only see the oil viscosity related changes in pressure. Fluid flow follows very similar rules to electric current flow in an electrical system (KCL and KVL). Current is constant through each element in the loop and consequently voltage drops lower at each node that current passes through. The sum of the voltage drops across each element is equal to the source voltage.

I'm not seeing your reasoning on the bypass valve, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your comments. If the valve opens at 100 psi, the system now becomes pressure regulated instead of flow regulated and some flow is diverted by the bleeder valve to cap pressure to 100 psi. I'm not sure what that has to do with the filter pressure drops because once the oil warms up and the system pressure falls below 100 psi, your back to full flow and you can now see the differences in pressure at each measurement point in the system as it relates to the restriction. If you were to keep the oil warmed at the same temperature, say 210F, and just change the filter type, you would see a change in oil pressure on the gauge because the pressure drop across the filter has changed. Flow is the same as long as your NOT in bypass which is only a cold start condition unless your running some crazy thick oil.

 

[TheLion70x77]

The flow restriction across most oil filters with hot oil and at max oil pump output (which is around 6 to 10 GPM max for a high performance OEM engine) is in the neighborhood of only 5 to 8 PSI. The flow restriction of a typical oiling system is around 10 to 15 times more than the flow restriction of the oil filters.

If you calculate the hydraulic pump HP required to flow oil through the oiling system at X PSI and Y GPM, and then calculate the required hydraulic HP just for the oll filter, you'll realize the amount of HP difference between a filter with 4 PSI of delta-p compared to a filter with 6 PSI of delta-p at the same flow conditions is so small that it probably couldn't even be measured on any kind of dyno. And engine isn't going to notice the difference at all.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydraulic-pumps-horsepower-d_1464.html

On-line hydraulic HP calculator: http://www.metaris.com/hydCal/HP.asp

Good point, but there is a difference. My point wasn't so much to focus on reducing flow restriction in the filter for tangible power gains, but to point to the fact that your not increasing pumping losses. Any changes I make focus on increasing reliability or performance, but avoiding sacrificing one for another as much as is possible. That was ultimately was I was after, not that your going to be able to measure greater wheel power, but that your not reducing it.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Some more interesting articles on oil viscosity from Driven Racing:

https://www.onedirt.com/tech/engine/lubrication-myths-science-lubrication/

Interesting is their viscosity recommendation chart which ALSO takes into account common clearances for bearings. It's all about temperature. For normal driving conditions or any performance condition where the oil isn't getting heated up a lot for engine in the 400-600 HP range they recommend a 20 weight (XP1 for race cars or their FR-20 for street cars), which has an ideal heat range of 200F-220F. That would be Drag Racing, Auto X or most street applications that see only short bursts of throttle and limited high rpm. Interestingly it is the OE viscosity recommendation by Ford.

Move your temp range up to 240F-260F which is light track or possibly frequent hard street use (especially in hot climates like Texas or Florida) for extended time periods and they recommend XP3 which is a 30 weight oil (street version would be their LS-30). Very similar to Ford's recommendations for the 2018-2019's to go up to 5W-30 for track applications.

For hard core track, it's common to see oil temps in the 280F-300F range. That means a 40 weight oil (they recommend their XP9 which is 10W-40 race oil, or their street car equivalent oil is DT-40). That falls right in line with my research findings. Ford uses 5W-50 for all of their dedicated track cars (Boss 302, GT350, Ford GT), however I believe that is because they know the common 5W-50's, especially the Motorcraft, shear down to 5W-40 after a short time. If your using a high quality 40 weight that doesn't shear out of grade, no reason to start out at 50 weight, so Driven's FR-50 is pointless unless your running under some ultra extreme conditions.

A good quality synthetic 5W-30 is a good all around oil that can fit many applications including frequent elevated oil temps, but a synthetic 5W-20 is more than adequate for most use cases that are not subject to frequent sustained high oil temps. A good 0/5W-40 is more ideal for hard core track (HPDE) sessions with an experienced driver due to sustained high oil temps. Either that or add oil cooling and run a 30 weight. It's all about temperature!

I'll see how I continue to like PUP 5W-30. It does take a bit longer to heat up than 5W-20 did, that's good for hot-roding, especially in the summer, but not as great for mundane uses. The car sees a good mixture of both. But so far so good in general. I can't tell a difference in power output and I wouldn't expect to. Throttle response seems a little more smooth (less surge) and linear than on MC 5W-20 which I like as it makes the car a little easier to drive.

 

[GT Pony]

Positive displacement pumps ensure fluid flow is constant IF there is no pressure loss path (a closed and pressurized system) and consequently pressures change after each restrictive element in the system. So it would make perfect sense that if the oil pressure sensor is after the oil filter any changes in the oil filter restriction would show up in your oil pressure gauge, more restriction results in a lower pressure reading (aka higher pressure drop), lower restriction results in a higher pressure reading (aka less pressure drop across the filter).
changed.

Flow is the same as long as your NOT in bypass which is only a cold start condition unless your running some crazy thick oil.

You kind of contradicted yourself. If the oil pressure sensor is after the filter (which it is on 99+% of vehicles), you will not see a pressure change from a more restrictive oil filter unless the oil pump is in pressure relief. If flow at the pressure sensor is the same under the same operating conditions, then the flow is the same. When a PD oil pump hits pressure relief, then the oil supply goes from a positive displacement source (ie, forces all volume down stream) to a constant pressure source (ie, volume going down stream is only dependent on the source pressure, which is pump relief pressure). That is the only time you could see any kind of pressure difference at the sensor after the oil filter due to a difference in oil filter flow restriction.

If the PD oil pump is not in pressure relief, then all oil volume leaving the pump must go through the filter (regardless of the filter flow restriction) and through the oiling system.

 

[boB]

For normal driving conditions or any performance condition where the oil isn't getting heated up a lot for engine in the 400-600 HP range they recommend a 20 weight (XP1 for race cars or their FR-20 for street cars), which has an ideal heat range of 200F-220F. That would be Drag Racing, Auto X or most street applications that see only short bursts of throttle and limited high rpm. Interestingly it is the OE viscosity recommendation by Ford.

Interesting. Anything more than about 8 seconds of heavy throttle means "go to jail" speeds and I doubt the oil heats up much in that time. So for the driving I do (mostly cruising around at < 2000 rpm with the occasional run to redline in 1st and second) 5W-20 is just right!

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