TT groups.. what R U Running.?

[Bridgie]

For those that take on Time Trialing.. Which groups are you running.?
What mods have you made to extend or retain group status.?

Is there a sweet spot for the S550 to run competitively against other makes, whilst not having a dedicated lightened, forced induction race car.?
I know tires are somewhat of a Limiting factor with TW, as well as weight to power ratios…

I’m just curious whether to keep in DE gauging times against myself, whilst learning tracks, race craft, set-up and having fun…. Or step into the unknown and take on the TT boys.

Currently have some engine tuning, 430rwhp, aero, full suspension upgrades and 40TW tires..

Thoughts and feedback would be appreciated.
Bridgie

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[nbjeeptj]

With your setup you would probably be TT2 with NASA. My car is similar but I have to run a 200TW tire to stay in TT3. In SCCA I run my car in M2 so its Max street having to keep full interior and max 200TW tire also. NASA seams to class cars better since there is a calculated method that takes RWHP, weight, tire size, tire compond, and Areo into account. Here is a link to that class form

https://form.jotform.us/83435707892164

Then here is the rules for SCCA

https://timetrials.growsites.net/pages/max-category

On the NASA form you will need to know RWHP, and your at race weight with you in the car.

 

[nbjeeptj]

Just looking quickly at the NASA class form for TT2, it looks like for you to be competitive you will need to gain a few HP or try to get down to around 3400LBs with you in the car. My car weighs 3850 with me in the car, so it may be easier to gain some HP than loose that much weight. Also if you go the weight loss plan it will put you in Unlimited on SCCA, since your interior will have been removed at that point.

 

[Biggsy]

Im not at that level yet, but knowing that I would I am working towards that, I decided I wasn't going to add any more power upgrades or drop weight until I dyno the car. I never weighed my car, but at my last event with NASA, I got on the scales just to see and I am at 4010 lbs. Just have to get on dyno to see the avg hp. I am hoping to stay in TT3 because TT2 would require much more to be competitive. I feel like TT3 is that sweet spot but I could be wrong. You can look at TT results of different classes from this past year and compare them to your times to see how you would do.

You could also de tune your car if you are over the hp limit. There is a Camaro SS 1LE that runs in TT3 with a lot of interior removed but he detuned the engine. To my understanding, lighter car and lower power yields better times than heavier car and more power but I also know that depends on the track.

 

[nbjeeptj]

Im not at that level yet, but knowing that I would I am working towards that, I decided I wasn't going to add any more power upgrades or drop weight until I dyno the car. I never weighed my car, but at my last event with NASA, I got on the scales just to see and I am at 4010 lbs. Just have to get on dyno to see the avg hp. I am hoping to stay in TT3 because TT2 would require much more to be competitive. I feel like TT3 is that sweet spot but I could be wrong. You can look at TT results of different classes from this past year and compare them to your times to see how you would do.

You could also de tune your car if you are over the hp limit. There is a Camaro SS 1LE that runs in TT3 with a lot of interior removed but he detuned the engine. To my understanding, lighter car and lower power yields better times than heavier car and more power but I also know that depends on the track.

There is a 2008ish CTSV that is in TT3, only 400hp at the crank so probably only 340 at the wheels and he weighs over 4000lbs but he is ok to run real wide race slicks and still stay in TT3. He has run CMP in the low 1:40's. For frame of reference the lowest time recorded by a mustang6 member is a 1:42.57 in the lap time thread. All that said I believe that above HP, or weight is tire. I have thought about adding a 2nd tune to my car to give it the max HP I can but let me run a full race tire. I have not looked at that in the calculation but I am guessing I need to take out about 60hp at my current weight.

 

[Ewheels]

I would read through Vorshlags blog posts. You can find it on their website. They talk about classing for the S550 platform.

As for which classes, there are always the smaller organizations in your local area. At least in my area, they are pretty decent at classing and always fun. Typically classed based on a mod point system.
Then there are the big national groups: NASA and SCCA. Can't speak for SCCA but NASA is classed based on power to weight ratio and other factors. They require a dyno chart and weight of your car with you in it. These are classed perfectly and are quite competitive.
I would pick which group you plan to run with and mod your car according to their rule book.

The S550 seems to class pretty well in TT3 if you do minimal mods. Like mostly street car, no power mods, minimal weight reduction.
TT2 also works for the S550 but it will usually require all the power mods (E85, intake, headers, exhaust) and quite substantial weight reduction. It's relatively easy to pull 200-300 pounds out of the car but passed that either requires gutting and cutting or lots of expensive carbon.

For example, I would say my car is pretty minimally modified for TT3. If I leave the passenger seat in, I can run Hoosiers. If I take the passenger seat out for weight savings, I go over the limit and have to go down to a 200TW tire. But for TT2, I'd need to gain 60whp or lose something like another 400 lbs.

Time Attack is great. You get the competitive nature of W2W but with much less risk and about 1/5th the cost. It's the natural next step from HPDE.

 

[Biggsy]

There is a 2008ish CTSV that is in TT3, only 400hp at the crank so probably only 340 at the wheels and he weighs over 4000lbs but he is ok to run real wide race slicks and still stay in TT3. He has run CMP in the low 1:40's. For frame of reference the lowest time recorded by a mustang6 member is a 1:42.57 in the lap time thread. All that said I believe that above HP, or weight is tire. I have thought about adding a 2nd tune to my car to give it the max HP I can but let me run a full race tire. I have not looked at that in the calculation but I am guessing I need to take out about 60hp at my current weight.

Great point on tires. Very important.

 

[Ewheels]

There is a 2008ish CTSV that is in TT3, only 400hp at the crank so probably only 340 at the wheels and he weighs over 4000lbs but he is ok to run real wide race slicks and still stay in TT3. He has run CMP in the low 1:40's. For frame of reference the lowest time recorded by a mustang6 member is a 1:42.57 in the lap time thread. All that said I believe that above HP, or weight is tire. I have thought about adding a 2nd tune to my car to give it the max HP I can but let me run a full race tire. I have not looked at that in the calculation but I am guessing I need to take out about 60hp at my current weight.

OP, this is a good point.....
If tire costs are a concern for you, I'd find a smaller local time attack organization that has a street class or something where you can be competitive on street tires.
If you want to win in NASA's TT, you pretty much have to run Hoosiers or at least Goodyear 3R's

 

[Bridgie]

Thanks guys for your positive and constructive feedback..
I’m very competitive against myself more so than other drivers, I don’t really care for a $10 trophy from TT, so staying in DE or Time Attack might be my option
There are plenty of drivers who stay in DE, tuning their cars and themselves and having fun. As an engineer I don’t really want the restrictions to mine and the cars progress.

I made a pact with the car, after every event or season it would get a performance treat if I returned home smiling.. LOL
Only once have I been without a smile.

 

[Ewheels]

To each their own.

The way I see it, HPDE doesn't let you know how well you're doing as a driver. If I add mods and set a new PB, is that because I myself improved or simply because the car is now faster? If I set a crazy fast lap in a 1000 hp car, is that because I'm a fast driver or the car is simply ridiculous?
If my car remains unchanged and I set a new PB; that's great, I'm improving, but perhaps someone with the same car is 5 seconds faster than me so really I'm still slow and have a lot of work to do.

In competition, you get immediate confirmation how you're performing as a driver. If all the cars in your group are modified to a set rulebook so they should all be equal equipment and you come in 1st place, then you know you are a fast and competitive driver.

 

[Bridgie]

All valid points Ewheels... and thank you for the reply.

I can look at live data from TT groups during an event, to gauge my standing. As a progression to become a better driver, not changing the car and setting PB's is of course a real measure, however, with the changing of track and weather conditions, PB's are somewhat difficult to come by when the conditions are not aligned.
DE gives you freedom to change the car, power, aero, tire parameters and different approaches to each lap for improvement and learning.

I leaning towards Advanced DE groups for the next couple of seasons with comparative analysis to TT groups at the same event.
I have a few buddies who run American Iron and TT, so I'm sure they will be coaxing me to join them..

 

[tosha]

To each their own.

The way I see it, HPDE doesn't let you know how well you're doing as a driver. If I add mods and set a new PB, is that because I myself improved or simply because the car is now faster? If I set a crazy fast lap in a 1000 hp car, is that because I'm a fast driver or the car is simply ridiculous?
If my car remains unchanged and I set a new PB; that's great, I'm improving, but perhaps someone with the same car is 5 seconds faster than me so really I'm still slow and have a lot of work to do.

In competition, you get immediate confirmation how you're performing as a driver. If all the cars in your group are modified to a set rulebook so they should all be equal equipment and you come in 1st place, then you know you are a fast and competitive driver.

I agree with @Bridgie - all great points. Except that DE does give you a great sense of progression. Nothing stops you from doing continious data collection and unless you change your car drastically between every event, it's still pretty comparable.

In addition, I get comprehensive performance report from an instructor after every event. And since they change from one event to another, I get tons of different perspectives. Some of them are very experienced track day drivers, others are former racers, some are still racing. It's awesome and invaluable. Every weekend is a big bump in confidence and things learned. Better times come naturally.

And to be honest, all my excuses come from the fact that TT is too much commitment for me so far, it requires a lot more car prep than I'm willing to do. Also, I assume my supercharger wouldn't help at all to stay in a competitive class.

 

[Flyhalf]

First thing
Different format of time trials
The most Famous is NASA and is based mainly of weight to power ratio
It goes from TT U(unlimited) to TT6 (miata)
There are different mod factor changing the ratio and ultimately the class (i.e. tire size, paddle shifting etc)

You will be in between TT3 AND TT2 there the aero can have big mods (but still.regulated)
there are other organization more oriented to time attack where big power and light cars are the stars
Our car fits better in the first format.
YOU WILL COMPETE VS CORVETTES CAMARO PORSCHE AND SOME BMW mainly. But not only.

In california there is also a dedicated "american car time trials called SUPERGT CUP"
So to answer your question depends what you want to do.
I run regional and NATIONAL TT2
I won national 2021 and did 2nd in 2022.
Car can be competitive.

 

[Flyhalf]

Time trials is a great way to have some sort of competition be around overall fast drivers and also different speed car. It will definitely increase your experience as a driver.
Agreed with eric on hpde.
In TT
You need to go fast. faster than the rest of people.
AND
You can also win something (pads tires etc)
And last ..Compete with faster driver will push you and help you to get faster).
If you pick nasa
You will be in a group with MIATA but also unlimited open wheels cars so the attention and the experience u gain is very big .
But the budget is way smaller than wheel 2 wheel .
And i would say..smaller than hpde.
Why? You run fewer laps. So less wearing. Less gas.
And it is fun pushing your self a little more everytime

 

[ChipG]

I'm running NASA TT3 in my GT350. Suspension pretty fully worked over, stock power (456rwhp), basically stock weight (4k+), 11.5" wide forged wheels with 325 tires. I stay in class by running GY F1 SuperCar 3 (not R). It's a daily driver, so not really competitive with well-prepped cars in class, not that I have enough driving experience to be top of class in a competitive field anyway. The car could better max out the class by adding aero and a few more HP, but it's unlikely to be truly competitive as a daily driver, which I understand. I'm working on building a dedicated track car from a '96 Cobra that I'll start in TT4, hopefully next year.

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