Track Time Limited due to High CHT

[GTP]

Get a Setrab and mount it correctly. It is very, very common to run an external air-to-air oil cooler on any sort of track car. Stop with the paranoia.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/SetrabApplicationSuggestions.pdf

Already ordered Thursday, from Pegasus.

GTP said:
Hmm interesting.
Well, 5.2L and 8200 rpm redline with a 1 square foot air/oil cooler describes a ticking time bomb to me!

My point was that if a Setrab 948 (at 1.3 sq ft area) is required to cool the Coyote, then I don't see how a ~1 sq ft cooler in the bumper is sufficient to keep the Voodoo cool which has even higher redline. Unless it is purely because the airflow is better in the bumper, i.e. without other coolers stacked up with it.

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[NeverSatisfied]

Hmm interesting.
Well, 5.2L and 8200 rpm redline with a 1 square foot air/oil cooler describes a ticking time bomb to me!

Riding with my student in his bolt on GT350 running 305 3R’s at RA in sunny 90f+ ambient we were seeing 220 CHT and 260+ oil. Id say he was driving about 8.5/10.

I don’t think there’s a lot of headroom for heat rejection in those cars either.

 

[GTP]

Riding with my student in his bolt on GT350 running 305 3R’s at RA in sunny 90f+ ambient we were seeing 220 CHT and 260+ oil. Id say he was driving about 8.5/10.

I don’t think there’s a lot of headroom for heat rejection in those cars either.

That's still impressive for Road America.

Maybe Mach1's will be okay.

 

[TeeLew]

Already ordered Thursday, from Pegasus.


My point was that if a Setrab 948 (at 1.3 sq ft area) is required to cool the Coyote, then I don't see how a ~1 sq ft cooler in the bumper is sufficient to keep the Voodoo cool which has even higher redline. Unless it is purely because the airflow is better in the bumper, i.e. without other coolers stacked up with it.

It seemed as if you were very concerned with reliability, which I don't feel is warranted.

The RPM itself has little to do with cooling. It's the power output which is important. The Shelby cars have more cooling air going through the nose, so if they use that air, they'll cool more. They have more power, so their added cooling is roughly equivalent to their added power.

 

[GTP]

It seemed as if you were very concerned with reliability, which I don't feel is warranted.

The RPM itself has little to do with cooling. It's the power output which is important. The Shelby cars have more cooling air going through the nose, so if they use that air, they'll cool more. They have more power, so their added cooling is roughly equivalent to their added power.

No, I am not concerned about reliability.

Well, except for the fact that I have the same cooling issue as everyone else who is running un-modified. My concern is more about long term reliability from thermally stressing the engine. I'm grateful the engine protects itself from runaway overheating, but it certainly takes the fun out of a 20min session.

And power/rpm is pretty much a linear relationship, so...

 

[NeverSatisfied]

That's still impressive for Road America.

Maybe Mach1's will be okay.

I’m not sure about Mach 1–every one I’ve seen on track so far has been Sunday driving.

I was even surprised in the higher temps of the GT350 when driving and leaving a bit on the table.

The heat increases exponentially as you get closer to the limits in the coyote.

 

[Hack]

Yes the air to oil cooler in the bumper, they don't have a water to oil as the GTs.

The 350 having such a big issue and recall on this is more of a exception rather the rule, but still it shows that such a cooler is not without problems and/or failures. If anything, it has more points of failure that can lead to a catastrophical engine failure vs. a water to oil unit.

If a GT cooler fails at one of the many connections and/or lines, it just leaks coolant but the engine lives for a while. If a GT350 (or any other air to oil cooler) fails at any of the fittings or lines, it means a destroyed engine rather quickly.

The only oil cooling issue I'm aware of with the GT350 is that there were some lines that weren't crimped properly. Ford did a recall on the lines. This happened on all the 2015 and 2016s if I recall correctly. I bought my 2016 in November of 2015 and my car had the lines replaced.

 

[Ewheels]

M6G cracks me up
I swear, it seems every thread on this site turns into an angry pissing match of who can be more technical and who has the biggest d**k.

Just go to TrackMustangsOnline.com and they will happily and politely give you the answer (just please leave the negative attitudes here). Their site sponsors are national championship winning race teams and shops; not American Muscle who wants to sell you fake hood vents.

 

[tosha]

M6G cracks me up
I swear, it seems every thread on this site turns into an angry pissing match of who can be more technical and who has the biggest d**k.

Just go to TrackMustangsOnline.com and they will happily and politely give you the answer (just please leave the negative attitudes here). Their site sponsors are national championship winning race teams and shops; not American Muscle who wants to sell you fake hood vents.

Oooh, no pissing matches, where's the fun in that??

On a serious note, I feel that this thread provides tons of great technical information, as long as you ignore less constructive stuff. Trackmustangsonline is a great source of information, but a bit overwhelming to start. And I feel that as soon as I open that can and of great ideas and products, my budget will spiral into even more disasterous state

 

[67Fast_V]

M6G cracks me up
I swear, it seems every thread on this site turns into an angry pissing match of who can be more technical and who has the biggest d**k.

Just go to TrackMustangsOnline.com and they will happily and politely give you the answer (just please leave the negative attitudes here). Their site sponsors are national championship winning race teams and shops; not American Muscle who wants to sell you fake hood vents.

Just as a fyi ... I posted the same question on TrackMustangsOnline back in Sept 2021 ... just looking for help to understand what's going on. Received some good info and experience from Flyhalf, Bob, and others.

But I think maybe the single most helpful post was #2 on this thread. Do you know who that was?? You only get 1 guess .

When you mentioned this "sealing" thing and it sent me off to investigate the merits. Low and behold I found 30+ deg reduction in CHT and drove the creation of the chart on post 278. So thank-you for your contribution .

The guys chiming in here also helped to define the chart on post 362, the benefit of removing the stock factory oil-water cooler. It's hard to isolate those mods on the track (unless its the only mod and data is scaled for conditions), but not so difficult to do analytically.

But yes, there is some unfortunate chatter along the way. However, I'm looking forward to supporting the following summary with the final piece of track data next month. The last piece is when I run with the larger grill. Preview below:

Best Cooling Mods to Make to address high CHT from an effectiveness, cost, and weight standpoint (2020 GT PP1 A10 experience):

#1. Sealing
#2. Open Grill
#3. Hood Vent
#4. Fan shroud mod (only if don't have a lot of stop and go traffic miles)

If #1 - #4, aren't enough. Then suggest...

#5. Replace factory water-oil cooler w/ air to oil cooler away from the radiator.
#6. Larger radiator (more surface area than PP1)
#7. If A10, then move the factory trans cooler away from the radiator (this is #7 assuming the trans temps are okay, if not, then this should be done in parallel with addressing CHT)

Just my two cents ... based on my track data/experience and analysis. Cheers.

 

[GTP]

The cooler end will be determined by your own setup but I used the following at the sandwich plate:

Remove stock sandwich plate and oil cooler
Setrab 180* Susa sandwich plate.
2x m22 to -12an straight fittings
1 x 12an double swivel 45*
1 x 12an double swivel 60*

I used these to route my lines between the top of the subframe and under the sway bar, pointed outboard to route the lines around the drivers side of the radiator. If your lines are resting on the subframe, the sway bar even at full compression is an inch away from -12 lines with fire sleeve on them.

Added benefit of removing the stock oil cooler is it leaves plenty of room for the ford performance fl280 filter on the Susa sandwich plate.

In your top photo, is the 45* adapter above the 60*? (The angles look similar.)

Do your hoses lie on top of the subframe or do they run along the side?

How should I secure the hoses to the subframe?
I was thinking securing a couple of these separators to the subframe with stainless ties. Therefore no drilling required for cushion clamps.

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

In your top photo, is the 45* adapter above the 60*? (The angles look similar.)

Do your hoses lie on top of the subframe or do they run along the side?

How should I secure the hoses to the subframe?
I was thinking securing a couple of these separators to the subframe with stainless ties. Therefore no drilling required for cushion clamps.

Yes the 60* the lower fitting. With a 45* there instead the fitting ends up pointing at the subframe instead of slightly above it.

I did not attach the lines to the subframe, they rest just above it. No need to attach since they cannot go anywhere anyways (since their fittings anchor them just a few inches away). Depending on your routing they may need a bracket where they wrap around the radiator but that’s all.

 

[NeverSatisfied]

Here we go again…

 

[trackd]

After some advice from the Forum, inspections of the OEM cooling system, analysis, mods, and track time, I now have the cause and solution ... which is outline in the simplest possible form in post #278. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Took 8 months to have enough data, mod time, and analysis to be able to make that chart ... and a lot of interesting discussion and additional data from other members along the way in this thread.

So whoever is reading this now and wants the bottom line (cause & solution for post 1), go to post #278. On long threads, I usually start at the end and back up.

Very good details and analysis over time! Thx all who contributed. Unless I missed it, how and what material did you use to seal the radiator surround areas with? I will tackle this first as we're getting into hot summers here for tracking. My last event last month at Big Willow, towards the late afternoon I get fuel cutoff or felt like it after 3 laps, didn't check CHT, could be because low fuel (~1/4). I was monitoring more on diff temps, which was still OK at about 255 (exhaust wrap only).

 

[67Fast_V]

Here we go again…

Oh boy ... it's never ending. I'm with ya. My only advice is to just picture yourself as an air molecule and you will want to seal the entire cavity between the grill holes and the back surface/plane ... seal up every hole/opening/slit. etc ... all around the perimeter of the radiator/condenser on the ... sides/top/bottom. Plus the engine inlet area and the opposite side too. And part of that is to cap the frame ends. And then turn around and look at the backside of the front clip/grill ... and do the same. It's painful but worth it. Good luck .

@trackd ... see post #96. That will get you started on the sealing project. It's not an elegant or super robust approach, but it's easy and effective. If you do step (A), that will get you 50%. Easy stuff. 1 day job. To get the remaining 50%, you will have to remove the front clip/grill/bumper assembly. I thought the front was 35-40% of the leak back then, but now I know it's more like 50%.

The only thing I would caution you on is if you are going to go for the ~100% sealing effort, do the front clip (part B) 1st. Cus if you do part A 1st, you will have to remove some of it in order to remove the front clip. Not the end of the world, just adds ~2 hrs of redundant work. Have fun and good luck.

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