TDStuart Tuning Adventure

[engineermike]

First, tell me if you want to try to retain imrc functionality. And, do you want to prioritize reducing the number of mapped points over fuel economy?

@tdstuart see my questions above. This will determine how many and where the mapped points should be.

Also, if we were to really want to boil it down to a minimum, I could see getting away with just 3 mapped points. You could tune the 3 and if you ever wanted to add 2-4 more, you could always do it later if you get bored. The locations would be 0/0, 5/35, and -20/35, all imrc open. Wot performance and probably idle wouldn’t suffer.

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[tdstuart]

@tdstuart see my questions above. This will determine how many and where the mapped points should be.

Also, if we were to really want to boil it down to a minimum, I could see getting away with just 3 mapped points. You could tune the 3 and if you ever wanted to add 2-4 more, you could always do it later if you get bored. The locations would be 0/0, 5/35, and -20/35, all imrc open. Wot performance and probably idle wouldn’t suffer.

Idk what I want to do haha. I should probably just choose a method and do it and I can always change later.

I just want to choose a mapped point that has decent drivability to start with so when I’m driving, datalogging, and testing. I’ll test your suggestions for cruise mapped points and see if they will work well enough and then I’ll just start tuning that point so I can least see how it’s done and make sure it working like we think.

Once I’ve done one I can play around with getting the mapped points how I want

 

[engineermike]

@tdstuart if you had to pick one mapped point to tune, I would make it at 5/35, with a second choice being 25/50.

5/35 can be used at cruise and part throttle and also wot top-end.

25/50 is more where you’d run normally for cruise and will be more fuel efficient, but you’d never use it at wot.

 

[tdstuart]

@tdstuart if you had to pick one mapped point to tune, I would make it at 5/35, with a second choice being 25/50.

5/35 can be used at cruise and part throttle and also wot top-end.

25/50 is more where you’d run normally for cruise and will be more fuel efficient, but you’d never use it at wot.

Okay I’ll decide tonight on one to tune. If I change it later, I change it later.

 

[HKusp]

Please allow me some latitude with the following post:

The first time I went skiing, I went on a weekend trip with a bunch of people who were ranging from good to great skiers. I had a bunch of well meaning people trying to teach me to ski, and I had watched a bunch of video in preparation for the trip as well. I was convinced it wasn't going to take me very long, as I was a reasonably good athlete in many different disciplines. The whole first day was murderous for me and the people who were all very eager to help. They spent a lot of their time trying to get me to understand, and were well intentioned, but I wasn't comprehending all the differing input. I went to bed that first night battered, bruised and frustrated. I didn't feel like I was any closer to being able to effectively ski after a whole day of multiple good to great skiers teaching me. I woke up early the next morning and decided to ask 1 person to go out early with me and teach me what they knew. It was only about a half an hour and I was able to get it down. By the end of the 2nd day I was competent enough to be on blue diamonds and make it down without falling. All it took was pairing it down to listening to only 1 person with 1 technique and, perhaps, the knowledge gained from a lot of previous failures the day before being fresh in my mind, but I was skiing and actually enjoying myself.

No offense to the people that are trying to help, and no offense to TD, but one thing I would ABSOLUTELY do is start taking advice from one person and one person only, and try to learn their methodology and make it make sense to you so that you have a better chance of nailing down the results you want. Getting advice from multiple people sometimes is very helpful, but when you are getting advice from people who have differing opinions on how to achieve a goal, to the point that the information may, in fact be contradictory, very little headway is going to be made.

if all that was too long to read for anyone, to sum up: Pick one persons advice and stick to it.

jmho.

 

[tdstuart]

No offense to the people that are trying to help, and no offense to TD, but one thing I would ABSOLUTELY do is start taking advice from one person and one person only, and try to learn their methodology and make it make sense to you so that you have a better chance of nailing down the results you want. Getting advice from multiple people sometimes is very helpful, but when you are getting advice from people who have differing opinions on how to achieve a goal, to the point that the information may, in fact be contradictory, very little headway is going to be made.

if all that was too long to read for anyone, to sum up: Pick one persons advice and stick to it.

jmho.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

It’s why I’ve been sticking mostly with @markmurfie . I also want others like @engineermike to chime in as people have different opinions and I want this thread to represent that.

The problem is this one thread is really about one thing: tuning the car. Lots of people have been chiming in calling me an idiot for certain things or derailing the main topic. If you want to DM me and call me an idiot, say I’m doing everything wrong, or suggest other things that aren’t tuning that’s fine.

I think eventually it would be nice to write mini posts about different tuning topics for these cars. If anything I think it would be nice if more of us understood how our cars work and the underlying “magic” of tuning. Tuning isn’t hard to understand or do, it’s hard to learn the knowledge to be able to do it.

 

[Pistol_91]

Yes great point. Learning a skill just from 1 person is definitely the best way to learn. Learning things from other people is dumb. That's why forums exist. To just learn from 1 person.

 

[tdstuart]

Yes great point. Learning a skill just from 1 person is definitely the best way to learn. Learning things from other people is dumb. That's why forums exist. To just learn from 1 person.

I think the point he is making is that when many people are trying to teach you a complex topic it can be very hard.

Would you rather have one person walking you through a complex math problem or 10 people telling you different ways to do it at the same time?

I addressed that yes it is still nice to have multiple people talk about it, it is a forum after all and I want others to be able to glean what they can. At the same time if Mike is telling me do one thing and mark is telling me another, I need to choose one persons process to follow, and it can get confusing if I hop back and forth.

 

[Pistol_91]

You already are doing what murf is telling you and listening to some of what Mike is telling you. I don't think you're listening to anyone else are you? Everything else is conversation on a thread on the forum like you stated. You don't need to make it public that you're choosing to listen to one person. Just do it. You're also doing shit on your own without guidance so I wouldn't really say you're listening to one person.

You could always just do like a lot of others have done and learn yourself through reading testing trial and error. I think you're lucky to have murf and Mike at your fingertips. I was being sarcastic about the learning from 1 person... Lol. In my line of work, learning from 1 person gets you no where. Learn from dozens and pick and choose what methods and things are efficient and work for you and forget the bad habits or bad info that comes with it. You can always learn something from someone.

 

[tdstuart]

You already are doing what murf is telling you and listening to some of what Mike is telling you. I don't think you're listening to anyone else are you? Everything else is conversation on a thread on the forum like you stated. You don't need to make it public that you're choosing to listen to one person. Just do it. You're also doing shit on your own without guidance so I wouldn't really say you're listening to one person.

You could always just do like a lot of others have done and learn yourself through reading testing trial and error. I think you're lucky to have murf and Mike at your fingertips. I was being sarcastic about the learning from 1 person... Lol. In my line of work, learning from 1 person gets you no where. Learn from dozens and pick and choose what methods and things are efficient and work for you and forget the bad habits or bad info that comes with it. You can always learn something from someone.

You are correct it’s pretty much what I am doing, but HKSup brought it up so I was just informing him.

And yes I picked up on the sarcasm haha.

I think I just need to choose something and start doing it. Then later I can install a map sensor if I want or change mapped points etc. already bought some of the stuff for the map sensor. We could go on forever discussing the right way to do something but sometimes it just needs to be done.

The problem I find with doing it myself is that there is a huge knowledge gap and not many resources to learn from. It also takes really long to test things and correct them. So yes huge benefit to have @markmurfie @engineermike and @K4fxd guiding and chiming in.

 

[Pistol_91]

You have all the resources in this thread for you spending their time on your car. If they suggest something, try it. If it doesn't work then revert back. Don't over complicate it. One thing at a time.

 

[engineermike]

Fwiw if markmurfie and I agree on anything, you can bet it’s correct. We’re both telling you to isolate mapped points, sample various loads at one rpm, etc. For tuning the sd model, he’s telling you to make tb-model map = sd model map, while I’m saying to tune the sd model until desired airflow = maf. Either will actually work, but he’s doing the math for you so you might as well do it his way. (I actually don’t think an external map sensor is necessary with these tools.) I haven’t heard him disagree with reducing mapped points, or even disagree with the cam timing mapped points I’m putting forward, so it’s probably pretty good numbers. He’s telling you to run 9 mapped points, I’m saying 3-6. 9 will work better, for sure, but I don’t see it being worth the time it takes to calibrate torque, sd, mbt, and blk for all 9. So there’s really no right or wrong answer on that part, just a better-vs-more practical preference.

 

[K4fxd]

if markmurfie and I agree on anything, you can bet it’s correct.

100%

We’re both telling you to isolate mapped points, sample various loads at one rpm, etc.

This is what Tristan needs to do. get logs of each mapped point you are going to use and vary the load.

Either will actually work, but he’s doing the math for you so you might as well do it his way.

Mark is being VERY generous in offering to do the math.

I would get the logs he is asking for before he loses interest.

 

[HKusp]

Yes great point. Learning a skill just from 1 person is definitely the best way to learn. Learning things from other people is dumb. That's why forums exist. To just learn from 1 person.

Oh no, it's much better hearing 6 or 8 people all saying different things at the same time, involving calculus level mathematics and at least pascal level programming skills. It's much more helpful learning it that way. That's how I remember school-4 different teachers in each subject all telling me different things at the same time. It works very well that way.

 

[WildHorse]

Yes 259 is the camshaft degrees. The cams are 263 seat to seat for both intake and exhaust

is that at .050" or .005" ?

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