MMR OPG's

[50BMG]

That's for average mundane driving. That ' will meet' rating won't cover severe duty. Then theres how it breaks down, sludge buildup with extended service, whole bunch of stuff. If you change your oil every 1000 miles, run that sh*tbox brand haha. Another way, after a 30 min track session, get the cheap oil analyzed. You'll be in for a shock haha.

Yea, I forgot to add the "grocery getter" part to my posting...
I agree with you RE: performance/HD use motor oils

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[shogun32]

I thought this paper was interesting.
https://engineering.purdue.edu/Maha/docs/gerotor_research_maha.pdf

 

[50BMG]

I thought this paper was interesting.
https://engineering.purdue.edu/Maha/docs/gerotor_research_maha.pdf

Leave it to a guy named Wolfgang Schweiger. That is a pretty cool model he developed though.

I know another Wolfgang who would agree (you all remember this guy?) :
Wolfgang

Oh, and I slowly revved up my Mustang the other day while parked, keeping my eye on the oil pressure...
Holy Cow! At about 4000RPMs the oil pressure immediately jumps up to 80-90PSI on the dash gauge. Did you all mention something about a solenoid which facilitates that increase in pressure/flow?
Nobody responded to my earlier post about using a no-bypass filter in our cars but I just pulled this off the Fram website about oil filter bypass valve operation:
Under normal conditions, the valve remains closed. When there is sufficient contaminant in the oil filter to reach a preset level of pressure differential to oil flow (around 10-12 PSI in most passenger cars), pressure differential on the relief (bypass) valve causes it to open. This condition can occur when the oil filter has become clogged or when the weather is cold and the oil is thick and flows slowly.

So, with the way the Coyote quickly spikes oil pressure in the higher/@4000 RPMs range like it does, I'm betting that a normal filter with a bypass value actually "bypasses" some oil quite regularly, especially under hard driving, when said up-spikes occur fairly regularly.
I'm sure the valve closes once again when the pressure differential on the ooutbound side of the filter equalizes, but it's likely open again for a short period with the next RPM transition up/past @4000... No?
I wonder why they designed the oiling system to work that way?

 

[socketman]

I have only seen the oil control solenoid on the truck engines and no ford wiring diagrams show the solenoid on a mustang.

 

[shogun32]

I have only seen the oil control solenoid on the truck engines and no ford wiring diagrams show the solenoid on a mustang.

it's there on Gen3 engines. I can't point to a URL but one of the detailed articles on high performance engines when they were going thru the Coyote3 had some column inches on it.

 

[socketman]

it's there on Gen3 engines. I can't point to a URL but one of the detailed articles on high performance engines when they were going thru the Coyote3 had some column inches on it.

Interesting , i worked at a ford dealership and noticed the trucks had it but my 16 GT did not . I looked through the wiring diagrams on oasis and it did not show it on any 18's or newer mustangs . I really felt their data was inadequate for a lot of stuff, oasis also doesnt mention that the 18 throttle bodies are digital and not analog. worst job i ever had really.

 

[WildHorse]

control or pressure ? All Mustangs have the pressure solenoid. Control solenoid usually refers to the VCT solenoid.

 

[socketman]

control or pressure ? All Mustangs have the pressure solenoid. Control solenoid usually refers to the VCT solenoid.

no this is actually down on the oil filter adapter itself next to the OP sensor they call it a control solenoid ..
FT4Z-6C880-B

 

[50BMG]

no this is actually down on the oil filter adapter itself next to the OP sensor they call it a control solenoid ..
FT4Z-6C880-B

Hmmm...
Still trying to figure out the logic behind this:
So they run a oil pump with pretty high pressure. And, to prevent over-oiling and excessive seal wear/damage at lower "cruising RPMs" they reduce the amount of pressure to a normal/"plenty of oil" range?
Could that be it?

My problem with how it works is the sudden spike in pressure when the solenoid gets activated. That has to be causing a "bypass moment" inside the filter when that happens....
If Fram's webpage is correct, and the pressure differential is only 10-12PSI to cause the bypass valve to open, a sudden 40psi jump in pressure has to be causing that valve to open for a moment until the pressure on the outbound side of the filter equalizes to the higher level... Right?

 

[shogun32]

If Fram's webpage is correct, and the pressure differential is only 10-12PSI to cause the bypass valve to open, a sudden 40psi jump in pressure has to be causing that valve to open for a moment until the pressure on the outbound side of the filter equalizes to the higher level... Right?

if the filter can flow properly at 80psi then a 40->80 gradient is not going to cause an imbalance that would trigger the bypass. There might be a transient spike that would cause a momentary opening of the relief valve but I doubt it's anything to worry about.

 

[ZPD]

My problem with how it works is the sudden spike in pressure when the solenoid gets activated. That has to be causing a "bypass moment" inside the filter when that happens....
If Fram's webpage is correct, and the pressure differential is only 10-12PSI to cause the bypass valve to open, a sudden 40psi jump in pressure has to be causing that valve to open for a moment until the pressure on the outbound side of the filter equalizes to the higher level... Right?

This is correct. I worked as an engineer/Ops director for an oil filter company for several years. Bypasses are intended to open when the filter is clogged up and there is a pressure differential on both sides of the filter because it is better to get dirty oil than no oil. However, the unintended consequence is that the bypass will open momentarily during start-up. The thing to realize is that it is only for a second or two and it barely cracks open. It doesn't take much for the pressure to stabilize below the set point. We made a military filter with a sensor detecting when it was open. You got a good idea how often it happens watching the indicator light.
Now the scary thing is that many bypasses are on the bottom of the filter (the non-gasket side for clarity)and the filter is mounted with the gasket up so guess where the heavy solids that don't get stuck in the filter media hang out? yep at the bottom of the can right near the bypass at risk to get sucked in at startup. I wonder when Ford and Chevy will catch up to the German and Japanese cars and use top mounted canister filters located on top of the engine? Those are a better design.

 

[shogun32]

. I wonder when Ford and Chevy will catch up to the German and Japanese cars and use top mounted canister filters located on top of the engine? Those are a better design.

Detroit hasn't had an original thought in 70 years and not about to start now... Plus top-mount means all kind of mess when you spin the filter off. And we all know, a show-worthy engine bay is more important than HP/TQ or general performance.
/sarc

 

[50BMG]

This is correct. I worked as an engineer/Ops director for an oil filter company for several years. Bypasses are intended to open when the filter is clogged up and there is a pressure differential on both sides of the filter because it is better to get dirty oil than no oil. However, the unintended consequence is that the bypass will open momentarily during start-up. The thing to realize is that it is only for a second or two and it barely cracks open. It doesn't take much for the pressure to stabilize below the set point. We made a military filter with a sensor detecting when it was open. You got a good idea how often it happens watching the indicator light.
Now the scary thing is that many bypasses are on the bottom of the filter (the non-gasket side for clarity)and the filter is mounted with the gasket up so guess where the heavy solids that don't get stuck in the filter media hang out? yep at the bottom of the can right near the bypass at risk to get sucked in at startup. I wonder when Ford and Chevy will catch up to the German and Japanese cars and use top mounted canister filters located on top of the engine? Those are a better design.

Awesome Info!
I knew it had to be true that filters regularly bypass. I'm going to share this with my Cobra group if you don't mind ZPD?
The bypass of the heavy/sediment with a bottom-down type of filter is why I and a couple other Cobra friends run only zero bypass types of filters. We've seen too much engine damage happen because of filters even periodically bypassing...
Had one friend lose a small piece of a value spring. Small enough that the engine still ran fine, but main main bearing suffered shortly thereafter when that piece bypassed through the filter. The filter never clogged entirely either (we cut it open).
Had another friend slowly lose a roller from a lifter when the bearing failed. Guess where all those little shards of metal went when the filter plugged and started to bypass...

The thing about a no bypass filter is that even when a filter clogs, if one pays ANY periodic attention to the OP gauge, you will easily notice what's happening before the flow of oil is completely shut off anyway and you can shut the motor down. The filters clog slowly and thus the pressures drop slowly. Larger pieces of debris may never 100% clog the filter (liek in my valve spring example above) but with no bypassing ever, the debris will never make it any farther than the filter anyway; saving the rest of the engine from damage.

I totally agree with you RE: the top mounted filter too. Mainly for convenience, but I guess the bypass being at the other end of the filter, away from any heavier crap inside is an even better reason for it.
I disagree with what you said about the mess Shogun. Honestly, my wife's Subaru has a filter mounted this way. You open the pan drain plug and remove the oil fill cap first. This allows the block and filter to drain down into the pan under the car. Then, the filter is pretty much empty when it gets removed (Subaru has a little "cup" that the filter stud sits inside to catch any leftover oil from the filter). Honestly, I could just about change the oil in the Subaru in a suit and tie and not worry about a dry cleaning bill afterward.

I may go with a Canton billet filter with next oil change. I think the Coyote has a 22mm stud right?

 

[ZPD]

Awesome Info!
I knew it had to be true that filters regularly bypass. I'm going to share this with my Cobra group if you don't mind ZPD?

That is fine to share.
The other thing to consider is that there are relocation kits where you can put the filter somewhere in the engine bay and then you can use a standard filter with the gasket down and the bypass now at the top of the filter. Most filters have an anti-drain back valve that will prevent the filter from emptying into the oil pan when in this orientation. That is another good thing about the German and Japanese with the canister filters- anti-drain back and bypass are implemented in the vehicle, not the filter.

 

[50BMG]

That is fine to share.
The other thing to consider is that there are relocation kits where you can put the filter somewhere in the engine bay and then you can use a standard filter with the gasket down and the bypass now at the top of the filter. Most filters have an anti-drain back valve that will prevent the filter from emptying into the oil pan when in this orientation. That is another good thing about the German and Japanese with the canister filters- anti-drain back and bypass are implemented in the vehicle, not the filter.

Thanks...
In my Cobra and most others, since most guys normally run a separate oil cooler which is mounted in the slot just below the radiator "mouth" on the front of the car, I have my filter remote mounted on a oil cooler bypass valve that a friend was marketing for a while.
It's bolted to a frame cross member in the front of the engine bay. That same valve has a mounting location for my oil temp gauge's sensor bulb as well. The Canton filter I use is mounted "the American way" I guess you could say, but being a no bypass type, that doesn't really matter.
When I change the filter element, I also don't normally install the rubber "disc" inside the filter body which normally works like the anti-drain valve in the filter since it doesn't really do much mounter mouth-up anyway.
I'd love to do something similar in the 'Stang, but especially since I plan on supercharging too, I have no idea where it might fit...

I did a write-up on the remote filter/bypass vale installation in my Cobra to try and help my friend market them if you are interested:
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all...aumont-cooler-bypass-valve-block-adapter.html

Sorry Richard... Don't mean to hijack your OPG thread here...

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