Juggernaut outed

[BlackandBlue]

Flores states it perfectly when he says “this is money out of MY pocket”.

This sums it up. Business is slowing. Revenue is falling. The upcoming generation is rumored to be untunable using the normal process.

Lund looks to be a one trick pony that has just broken a leg. Pretty normal behavior from a company that has coasted off of previous success with most of its energy spent on negativity instead of innovation.

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[bankyf]

There is no public record of Lund paying any fines. It was soon after Lund got raided MAK and others stopped producing test pipes. Header companies started to only sell catted headers.........

Should I say it or let you think it??

Those things take time. Looking at cases that were settled this year, they seem to be about 2 years out. It may still be coming.

 

[MKL_DS]

Lots of interesting theories and opinions in this thread.

As a guy who is 17 years into a full time career in the tuning industry, I probably have a very different perspective than some others. Most obvious point I can make is, the OEMs are not going after any of the companies offering editors/flash capabilities that allow tuning their vehicles. If it was all so proprietary, they'd be suing the pants off everyone, There'd be no SCT, Diablo, HPt, etc.

Little background....a long time ago, my old boss worked for Ford. He talked to some guys at work who told him about this magic port on the side of the EECIV that allowed programming changes through a piggyback chip. He went and developed a chip, wrote some software, and started tuning Mustangs. Eventually started a side business, Auto Logic. iykyk.
Ford didn't take too kindly to this, and they sued him. In the end, they paid his legal fees and said have a nice day, sorry about the hassle. Hence an industry was born.

Today, the OEMs are doing everything in their power to protect their calibrations, for more than just 'tuning related reasons', but once you get in, they aren't trying to stop anyone. Because they can't.

In this particular case, the idea that tuner A should just start over and retune from scratch for a simple change, or that the customer should be held hostage to the original tuner for future changes, seems a bit silly to me. For those who think their file is magically locked up in their pcm for no-one else to ever gain access, lol. Locked, calid scrambled, none of that matters if someone wants to read it bad enough. If you know hex addresses, you are gonna read it out.

If Ford can't go after you for editing their file, why can someone else edit that file and call it their own? How does that work? What's the precedent?

Just so everyone is aware, this entire industry is based on reverse engineering. There is no front door. Everyone is looking for a lapse in security or an exploit to take advantage of. As far as calibration stuff goes, companies that provide editing software have to map endless parameters to make accessible to users. In some cases, knowledgeable tuners are mapping things out that weren't there before, but it still lived in he PCM. In the end, it all came from the OEM, or their contractor, and has to be reverse engineered.

 

[ZXMustang]

Lots of interesting theories and opinions in this thread.

As a guy who is 17 years into a full time career in the tuning industry, I probably have a very different perspective than some others. Most obvious point I can make is, the OEMs are not going after any of the companies offering editors/flash capabilities that allow tuning their vehicles. If it was all so proprietary, they'd be suing the pants off everyone, There'd be no SCT, Diablo, HPt, etc.

Little background....a long time ago, my old boss worked for Ford. He talked to some guys at work who told him about this magic port on the side of the EECIV that allowed programming changes through a piggyback chip. He went and developed a chip, wrote some software, and started tuning Mustangs. Eventually started a side business, Auto Logic. iykyk.
Ford didn't take too kindly to this, and they sued him. In the end, they paid his legal fees and said have a nice day, sorry about the hassle. Hence an industry was born.

Today, the OEMs are doing everything in their power to protect their calibrations, for more than just 'tuning related reasons', but once you get in, they aren't trying to stop anyone. Because they can't.

In this particular case, the idea that tuner A should just start over and retune from scratch for a simple change, or that the customer should be held hostage to the original tuner for future changes, seems a bit silly to me. For those who think their file is magically locked up in their pcm for no-one else to ever gain access, lol. Locked, calid scrambled, none of that matters if someone wants to read it bad enough. If you know hex addresses, you are gonna read it out.

If Ford can't go after you for editing their file, why can someone else edit that file and call it their own? How does that work? What's the precedent?

Just so everyone is aware, this entire industry is based on reverse engineering. There is no front door. Everyone is looking for a lapse in security or an exploit to take advantage of. As far as calibration stuff goes, companies that provide editing software have to map endless parameters to make accessible to users. In some cases, knowledgeable tuners are mapping things out that weren't there before, but it still lived in he PCM. In the end, it all came from the OEM, or their contractor, and has to be reverse engineered.

Exactly. Lund is as bad of a thief to
Ford as the next guy is to him.

 

[Evolvd]

“But, but, but mah proprietary software and all the monies we spend!”

-Flores

 

[furdfan2018]

This whole tuner shit/drama is comical.

Every single tuner out there rips off someone else. Every one of them has pirated Ford's baseline tunes and simply modified the parts that they felt updated/improved it to their needs.

There is no copyright or intellectual property rights for hacked/pirated tunes (which are largely against the law anyway).

If the debate is "who's actually making the better improvements and who's stealing someone else's work" it's still dubious.

If you send me a recipe for ribs, and I like most of your version, but I want to add or remove or change the quantities of the ingredients, it now becomes MY recipe.

And again, ALL OF THEM have stolen Ford's work.

100%

irony is most of this bs is exclusive to Ford. The GM tuning world is wide fookin open so that others can, you know... LEARN -- and make the end product better for everyone.

 

[furdfan2018]

flores is an idiot and moron and a LIAR

if lund spent more time taking care of customers than whining online they would be much better off.

we dropped them like a hot potatoe last year.

after sending them over a million $ in revenue, i couldn’t take it any more.

their condescending attitude. better than everyone and consistently blaming “mechanical issue” so they don’t have to actually tune a car.

anyone who thinks matt can’t tune doesn’t have a clue. matt is one of the most intelligent people i have met in this industry.

not only does matt tune. he is an engineer and coder.

more experienced than anyone lund has under the roof. his level of knowledge makes flores look elementary school at best.

let’s get them on a show together…. it would be hilarious.

10 months and my car had an issue that arose as soon as we put the larger turbo on it. the pcm was shutting itself down and resetting itself.

Just so everyone understands what happened at md nationals two years ago we overnighted a bigger turbo, put it on the car, and the minute we started making more power with the bigger turbo the computer started shutting itself down

for 10 months we troubleshooting “mechanical issues “. Lund refused to look at it as the tune because it was “a known good file “

They are the king of copy pasters.

How many 2018 BL fabrication single turbo 104 Fore Innovations fuel system FIC 2150 built engine cars are you tuning. You’re turning one, so how can I be a known good file

They had me jump through hoops for 10 months, replace multiple things for thousands of dollars and my crew chief diagnosing the car replacing things thousands and thousands of dollars thousands of dollars traveling trying things that never worked

I spoke to a Tuner that hasn’t tuned anything since like 2010 never even tune a coyote

I’ll talk to him maybe 30 seconds explaining what was going on and instantly he told me that we were hitting a critical limiter

What that limit or is he said he didn’t know. But the PCM is reaching some kind of limit that it should not be able to reach and it’s causing it to shut down

Funny thing was after everything was down and figure it out and that was what the issue was. Lund Senior told me yeah I know that guy he’s not that smart.

I’m thinking to myself with your son was working on the car for 10 months and didn’t have a clue and this guy figured it out 30 seconds at least knew where to look

Anyway, after talking to multiple tuners with Mod, refuse to acknowledge, it was a tunin issue. Matt offered to fly up, look at the car, and he was confident he could figure out whether it was a mechanical or a tune issue.

after spending the day with us on the Dino and the issue being very reputable, Lincoln says that he was convinced it was a tune issue

He took all the data back with him to Florida, took about a week week and a half, but he was able to figure out the issue, right a patch into the software and fix the issue

We instantly were running the 10th and a half quicker than we’ve ever ran with Lund tooting the car not only that I was able to throw like another 8 pounds of boost at it in second gear. We’re lunds tune would just flair and not be able to shift.

Fast forward to the new control pack car that we done on the 2015

We went untested to our first race, and we had a problem where the car would not go above 3500 on the transbrake, or with shift gears while you were on the transbrake

So we brought the car back home and went to work trying to diagnose the issue

Matt again went into the coding in the programming looking for things that weren’t mapped out in Sct or Hp Tuners

He was able to find the perimeter. It took about a week and a half, but he found it, mapped it out. It was able to write it into the programming and fix the issue.

The funny thing is lund knew we were having the issue because I never really hide anything and posted about it

Of course they make a post on their forum showing cars with control packs launching above whatever RPM like they’re so smarter than everybody else with hashtags referencing 3500 taking shots at matt.

The funniest thing about all of that, a kid that is a big lund nut swinger commented on one of my posts

He is the one that first had the issue with Control pack two years ago. He had the exact same issue we were we’re having.

The funniest thing is he even private messaged me telling me how great Lund was because after he got with Ford racing when Lund couldn’t figure it out and Ford sent him data logging equipment to try to figure out the issue and then he specifically told me that Ford Racing sent Lund what they needed to change so that his trans brake would work with his control pack

so Lund is basically taking shots about how great they are with their tuning because they basically don’t have an issue that we were having

When they had the exact same issue in Ford racing, had to give them an answer lol

Meanwhile, in just about a week and a half Matt was able to code it out, figure it out himself through trial and error, and get the car working correctly

And I even made a post about how we were sending the information to Sct and to Hp Tuners to make the information public so if anybody else had the issue, they knew where to find it at

And so that the software companies could make the changes live to wear it didn’t have to be coded in

In addition after the first issue, and I told Lund that Matt fixed the car and it was a tunin issue

He immediately went behind the scenes, trying to get Tuner’s not to sell devices to me and get me blacklisted from the company

All while still being a dealer for them

Very underhanded and very shady and I have the phone call where I got Lund to admit it over the phone

The tuning community used to be a great community. We’re all the Tuner’s got along, and they all shared info.

The problem is lund fell out of grace with most of those tuners because they got a big head and thought they were better than everybody else

I personally just didn’t feel comfortable, sending another dollar to them

So after over $1 million of revenue generated for Lund I cut ties

I’d rather not make the money, then send them another cent.

Juggernaut has been doing an excellent job for us there half the price of a lund tune and Matt goes out of his way to take care of the customers

I will put Matts ’s résumé up against 99% of the Tuner’s in the country

I would love to put lund Senior Junior and Flores in the same room with a tunin issue that is it mapped out that you have to figure out on your own and see who does it first

why doesn’t somebody ask lund who wrote their entire back end software? guess what. it was matt, why him and not jr. becuse hes smarter than them

why do you think Lund recruited him? Because he’s one of the best out there

and also…. feel free to ask me how many different stock files lund had me suck off when I was working at the Ford dealership……..

Got damn!!!! Hell of a read.

 

[beefcake]

Got damn!!!! Hell of a read.

anyone who knows me, knows i shoot straight from the hip....

i don't say anything without it being accurate, and with some documentation to back it up... even have a phone recording of some of it....

 

[furdfan2018]

anyone who knows me, knows i shoot straight from the hip....

i don't say anything without it being accurate, and with some documentation to back it up... even have a phone recording of some of it....

I bought 2 FI kits from you and a fuel system.. along with the tuning for each (back then you were using Lund).

So I am a Beefcake/Lund customer.

Lund currently tunes my TT 2018 coyote car... making around 900whp on 13 psi.

All that said, I do agree they can be finicky bitches. Jr tuned my TT car and if you coddle his balls enough, he'll play. My set up is a little outside of the box with a lot of the hot side of my kit being fabbed by me -- it took some convincing for him to tune it, but in the end he did.

Terry has always treated me fair, lightning fast responses, even on the weekend, unbeatable prices.

 

[K4fxd]

Terry has done me a solid before. I'm sure he doesn't remember it but I sure do.

 

[beefcake]

I bought 2 FI kits from you and a fuel system.. along with the tuning for each (back then you were using Lund).

So I am a Beefcake/Lund customer.

Lund currently tunes my TT 2018 coyote car... making around 900whp on 13 psi.

All that said, I do agree they can be finicky bitches. Jr tuned my TT car and if you coddle his balls enough, he'll play. My set up is a little outside of the box with a lot of the hot side of my kit being fabbed by me -- it took some convincing for him to tune it, but in the end he did.

Terry has always treated me fair, lightning fast responses, even on the weekend, unbeatable prices.

Terry has done me a solid before. I'm sure he doesn't remember it but I sure do.

I appreciate it guys,

I have been selling for 40 years, and I like to think i'm a good judge of character.

After working with Matt for close to a year now, I can honestly say I do believe him to be a genuinely good hearted guy, and someone who cares about people and doing what he can to make things work.

He is also one of the most intelligent guys I have met. His knowledge and skill level is almost unparalleled by people in this industry.

When he was going to fly in to look at the car. I remember Brian, my crew chief and installer and best friend telling me. "I can log, whats he need to fly in for".

Matt had got to the shop and had been working on the dyno with Brian for about 4 hours when I got to the shop.

I was standing at the front of the dyno, and Matt was in the car doing what he does. Brian came walking up to me, looks at me and goes. "That is one smart mother Fuc...r right there"

In only 4 hours Matt had impressed someone that has been working on cars for nearly 40 years alot. And, anyone that knows Brian or has come to us for installs, knows he is one of the most genuine people you will ever meet to.

I can only go off my gut. But even to this day, with all the bad blood between Matt and Lund, Matt has yet to say 1 single negative thing about lund. I don't even think i've heard the man utter a single curseword.

IMO he is the real deal...

And keep in mind, when he left lund, the biggest reason was to be close to his wifes parents who were ill. It wasn't to leave and start tuning, and he wasn't tuning anywhere, until Lund started coming after him.

 

[Angrey]

Terry/Beefcake has that business ethic where he naturally establishes long term customers. He's always quoted me the best pricing (within what the suppliers allow) and as a result, I tend to try Beefcake before I shop anywhere else. There are also other solid vendors in the market too, but I think Terry's approach just engenders people wanting to return over and over again.

50% of the equation is that he's accessible.

 

[Evolvd]

It’s easy to please people when everything goes right, but a real company shows their worth when things go wrong. I’ve seen enough from folks that if things go wrong with Lund, you’re gonna hate life. No thanks.

 

[ZXMustang]

It’s easy to please people when everything goes right, but a real company shows their worth when things go wrong. I’ve seen enough from folks that if things go wrong with Lund, you’re gonna hate life. No thanks.

Yeah hes quick to just cut ties and you are screwed out of what you paid for tuning. Heres an excerpt from one of his replies to me from a FB thread. I had inquired about tuning a while back and was met with snarky replies from his secretaries. I then months later called him out on one of his bitching posts and this is what he said back to me. Nice huh. This is your messiah. RIP your tuning money if he decided hes done with you.

 

[TexasMetallic5.0]

Yeah hes quick to just cut ties and you are screwed out of what you paid for tuning. Heres an excerpt from one of his replies to me from a FB thread. I had inquired about tuning a while back and was met with snarky replies from his secretaries. I then months later called him out on one of his bitching posts and this is what he said back to me. Nice huh. This is your messiah. RIP your tuning money if he decided hes done with you.

Jr. isn’t wrong.

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