First track day...brake question

[Arknsawchuck]

Well I tossed the stock pads. Should I buy some track pads for this and next month or just run the Z26 and be careful?

I tossed my stock ones also...lol. I've tracked mine and I didn't have any major issues. Just have to keep your limits in mind when stopping. The fading only happened a couple times on extremely hard braking. I'll be tracking mine again with them.

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[yosv0610]

Stock fluid is fine for 1-2 events assuming you haven't over-heated it before. You can literally roll this car off a showroom and go straight to the track. Just keep an eye on the brakes. Given that you're running non-OEM pads and this is your day on track in this car, just be smart in the braking zones, try not to ride them, and you'll be in good shape.

Remember, smooth is fast!

What means “ride the brakes”. Please, someone can explain. I used to hit my brakes slowly, not hard, not abrupt.

 

[honeybadger]

What means “ride the brakes”. Please, someone can explain. I used to hit my brakes slowly, not hard, not abrupt.

This is a bit hard to explain over text, but I’ll give it a shot. Essentially, you don’t want to use the brakes anymore than you have to. So don’t gently “ride” them, meaning don’t have them engaged for an entire brake zone. Get on them quick (HARD), and then gradually release them as you reach the corner. They shouldn’t be on or off, no should you be so gentle that you’re using them any longer than you need to.

If you think of braking technique, you should be at 100% of your braking force with .25 second of applying them, but then take 1 second or so to release them. This changes a lot depending on track and car, but it gives the general idea. Numbers are rough, but ratios are good.

there are so many caveats here (trailbraking, your own experience and car, etc.), so take this with a grain of salt.

here, check out this video. I’m using advanced braking techniques (such as trail braking and heel/toe), but the concept is the same. Heaviest on the brakes right at the beginning and then gradually releasing them.



I really should properly cover this in a video. It would be so much easier. Haha

 

[honeybadger]

I knew I was forgetting Something

It’s one of those things that you’re like “yeah that makes sense” but you don’t really get it until it’s face-slappingly obvious. Haha.

I’ve taken to deliberately slowing way sown to demonstrate it when giving ride-a-longs because so many of my students were diving into brake zones like the space shuttle entering atmosphere.

late braking is for passing, not lap times!!

 

[11GT50]

Call Full Tilt Boogie and see if they have some Hawk pads available

You may look at the Ferodo DS2500s. I ordered a couple sets from GT350brakes.com before I moved to Raybestos pads.

 

[oldbmwfan]

HB's description is good. Here is a visual I use. When you first apply the brakes, that very first instant depress the pedal "two credit card thicknesses." Then fast-ramp to HARD pressure. This all happens, as HB said, <0.5 second. But that first "squeeze" is REALLY important for braking stability - it sets the pads against the rotor so when you nail the pedal, you're getting equal stopping force on all the pads, and you get less nose-dive and more ultimate grip from your tires.

The GT350 calipers are so good and so stiff, the feel is amazing under hard braking. But it's a good habit to fast-ramp into the brakes, because if you're ever in a car with less rigid calipers, it makes a huge difference. (My BMW race car, with slight toe-out in front and floating calipers, can get really tail-happy under hard braking if I jab the brakes clumsily)

That's the application. Then as you slow, you're gradually releasing pressure. Why? Three reasons:
1) As you slow, the peak brake force will be enough to lock the brakes/ engage ABS, which is a little bit slower
2) When you reach then end of braking and want to turn, if you suddenly "jump" off the brakes, the springs will "bounce" the car's nose up, and you will unload the front tires and lose front grip - precisely when you want max front grip for turning in! Gradual release keeps the suspension loaded so you can maximize tire grip from braking into cornering without "bouncing" the car around - you will feel it when you get this wrong, because the car will feel like it wants to fly off the outside of the corner. Get it right and it will feel stable and slow - but it will be fast.
3) Because gradually unloading the nose frees up some grip for turning, it helps you gather up the car and still make it safely through the turn if you came in too hot. You carry the brakes at lower pressure deep into the corner and gradually feed in steering ... allows you to save a botched corner (you'll be wide of the apex, but on the track)

Put it all together - if you draw a graph of brake force through the braking zone, it goes from zero before the braking zone (when you're full throttle), to a very slight, extremely short bump and then a vertical line to max brake force (squeeze and then stand on it), followed by a gradually dropping line until you start to turn the front wheels into the corner, at which point you're 90%+ off the brake (for most corners)

Here is the brake and throttle trace for a couple decent drivers (Schumacher is a left-foot braker; your throttle will be at 0 while on the brakes). Note these guys brake all the way to the apex; you will not be doing that (get the braking done in a straight line before turn-in, for the most part). Also note the throttle application is smooth but fast - don't want to slam the gas down while rear tires are still working for corner grip.

 

[honeybadger]

Good god, that Schumacher graph is beautiful. that's some serious smooth brake application for left foot, manual brakes....and all done in 1-2 seconds. Crazy!

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

Good god, that Schumacher graph is beautiful. that's some serious smooth brake application for left foot, manual brakes....and all done in 1-2 seconds. Crazy!

I've tried similar things with "family-fun"-level go-karts (for others: because it takes so long for them to get into the RPM power-band again, that it's faster to keep on the gas while braking, rather than release the gas, brake, then push on the gas and wait a long time for the RPM to build up again), but in Schumacher's graph, he completely lets go of the throttle for a split second at the end, so he has to accelerate from no throttle in the end anyway.
What is the benefit of keeping his right foot on the gas in this case? Looks like his right foot keeps pressing the gas a little bit the whole way while breaking, then completely lets go of the gas for a split second before flooring it.

 

[svttim]

A lot of great information but too much for the beginner.

 

[svttim]

I've tried similar things with "family-fun" go-karts (for others: because it takes so long for them to get into the RPM power-band again, that it's faster to keep on the gas while braking, rather than release the gas, brake, then push on the gas and wait a long time for the RPM to build up again), but in Schumacher's graph, he completely lets go of the throttle for a split second at the end, so he has to accelerate from no throttle in the end anyway.
What is the benefit of keeping his right foot on the gas in this case? Looks like his right foot keeps pressing the gas a little bit the whole way while breaking, then completely lets it go of the gas for a split second before flooring it.

Well, youd have to ask Michael but, you can steer with the throttle as well as accelerate. Unloading and loading weight on the front or rear of the vehicle

 

[honeybadger]

I've tried similar things with "family-fun"-level go-karts (for others: because it takes so long for them to get into the RPM power-band again, that it's faster to keep on the gas while braking, rather than release the gas, brake, then push on the gas and wait a long time for the RPM to build up again), but in Schumacher's graph, he completely lets go of the throttle for a split second at the end, so he has to accelerate from no throttle in the end anyway.
What is the benefit of keeping his right foot on the gas in this case? Looks like his right foot keeps pressing the gas a little bit the whole way while breaking, then completely lets go of the gas for a split second before flooring it.

My guess is to keep the car settled under braking (could be a slight turn vs. straight line braking since it is an F1 car) and then lets off for a split second to get a bit more rotation mid corner.

 

[Vettel-ish]

Update.

Stock pads ordered. Amsoil dot 4 arrived today.

Dealer will install both when pads come in.

Helmet, gloves, torque wrench, air compressor and cooler all ready to into the car for the day.

 

[key01]

It’s getting very technical in here. Good stuff. Next we will be talking dead pedal steering and the OP will be spinning in circles.

 

[Vettel-ish]

Well, youd have to ask Michael but, you can steer with the throttle as well as accelerate. Unloading and loading weight on the front or rear of the vehicle

Good news I am not michael...I am vettel....ish

Right now that means drive around in the back with a shit car after being told I am loosing my job.

 

[honeybadger]

Good news I am not michael...I am vettel....ish

Right now that means drive around in the back with a shit car after being told I am loosing my job.

Ha! Dude is having a rough year for sure.

So happy to see McLaren is doing well this year, tho. New regulations can't come soon enough

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