"expected" weight gain

[Dirk McGurck]

Something like Honda's F20C would be fun in that.

Oh yeah. Too bad Honda apparently had better things to do.

I want a Supra trim for the FR-S, which should have been called Celica anyway.

Sponsored

 

[SStormtrooPer]

Oh yeah. Too bad Honda apparently had better things to do.

I want a Supra trim for the FR-S, which should have been called Celica anyway.

Yeah, Honda has priorities. Becoming more boring.

 

[scottpe]

Removed. I'll post this elsewhere...

 

[Mriley]

:threadjacked:

This thread was going so well until page 7. Really enjoyed the spirited debate guys

Who knows maybe this becomes a moot point when Ford reveals that weight is unchanged. Who wins then?

 

[Dirk McGurck]

Yeah, Honda has priorities. Becoming more boring.

There were rumors of another small roadster a la S2000, but once I saw 1.6/1.4L mills mentioned I laughed and moved on.

 

[Dirk McGurck]

Who knows maybe this becomes a moot point when Ford reveals that weight is unchanged. Who wins then?

The beancounters and their bottom line.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

:threadjacked:

This thread was going so well until page 7. Really enjoyed the spirited debate guys

Who knows maybe this becomes a moot point when Ford reveals that weight is unchanged. Who wins then?

Yeah, this got off track real fast.

Not sure who wins. Some of us still lose, others might have to flip a coin.

 

[Mriley]

The beancounters and their bottom line.

I would think beancounters had little to do with added weight since they probably fought tooth and nail to keep the SRA, heated/cooled seats etc. Then again I see what you're saying. Heavier use of aluminum, boron, cf etc.

 

[eurospeed]

Hell, I like autocrossing. I'm just not in a hurry to drive an autocrosser on a long cross country trip. Your willingness to drive a serious autocrosser on the street probably makes you a pretty small segment of the total market. Ford is obsessed with a strong chassis because of crash requirements/safety issues, handling benefits and because lighter materials undoubtedly add cost. I don't think anyone at Ford just wants to make a heavy car for the sake of a heavy car. If they could lighten it they would gain fuel mileage benefits too which would be to their advantage. I don't believe for a minute that Ford is on this road out of stupidity. They are already better than their U.S. competitors ( do you want to autocross a Challenger/Camaro?) and they are less expensive than their potential offshore competitors.

An autocrosser does not have to be overly radical in terms of daily driveability, however that said, I'd prefer a very stiff suspension over a typical OEM suspension any day. Am I part of a small-er minority? Absolutely.

Back to the weight discussion. We all know reducing mass in an already optimized design is a challenging and costly process. However, in new designs, there are considerable opportunities. Hopefully Ford can take advantage of this and compete not only with its US counterparts, but the foreign market as well. The first indicator of overall size being nearly identical is not a good start.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

Back to the weight discussion. We all know reducing mass in an already optimized design is a challenging and costly process. However, in new designs, there are considerable opportunities. Hopefully Ford can take advantage of this and compete not only with its US counterparts, but the foreign market as well. The first indicator of overall size being nearly identical is not a good start.

This is where I am struggling the most - I am looking for both size and weight to go down. SN95 size would be reasonable, 3200 - 3300 lbs.

I feel one of two things is happening: 1. Ford blew a really big opportunity to address what it seems like MOST enthusiasts would like, and what the competition is most likely going to do, which is to get rid of some bloat and some weight -- go back to the roots of the driving experience, OR, 2. This chassis is not as big of a departure from the S197 platform than we thought or were lead to believe, and there is nothing to be taken out... keeping in mind ALL of this is based on speculation that the car may have gained weight.

 

[m4a1mustang]

Something like Honda's F20C would be fun in that.

Yeah, Honda has priorities. Becoming more boring.

There were rumors of another small roadster a la S2000, but once I saw 1.6/1.4L mills mentioned I laughed and moved on.

This thread... right in the feels. I really miss my S2000. As much as I love Mustangs and Z cars, my AP2 is by far the best car I've owned. So. Much. Fun.

 

[pacettr]

So we have supposed car guys in this thread heralding the Corvette and 370Z for size and weight. The Corvette costs nearly twice as much and is a 2-seat sports car. The 370Z comes with MUCH less hp in the form of a smaller V6, and also seats 2.

These factory "lightweights" undercut the Mustang by a whopping ~ 200 lbs.


What am I missing? Put in this context, along with the fact that the Mustang's two most direct competitors are much heavier than the Mustang, it makes the Mustang look like an engineering marvel.

The 2013 M3, comparable in size and performance, weighs 3700+

 

[Dub347sbf]

So we have supposed car guys in this thread heralding the Corvette and 370Z for size and weight. The Corvette costs nearly twice as much and is a 2-seat sports car. The 370Z comes with MUCH less hp in the form of a smaller V6, and also seats 2.

These factory "lightweights" undercut the Mustang by a whopping ~ 200 lbs.


What am I missing? Put in this context, along with the fact that the Mustang's two most direct competitors are much heavier than the Mustang, it makes the Mustang look like an engineering marvel.

The 2013 M3, comparable in size and performance, weighs 3700+

Exactly comparing apples to apples would be camaros and challengers. Now the alpha platform is showing promise, but I expect like the flagship (c7) it comes out heavier than what is being reported to date. If Ford even broke even on weight, I have no doubt this mustang will compete handily. If they hit the rumoured 200 loss I see the 16 camaros having problems. The challenger better hit up jenny Craig. I'll take american muscle over a 370 any day you give me the option. Not talking shit but that's not a pony car.

Edit: if ford hit the 200 lb. loss, camaro guys should be begging the corvette engineers to make their car lighter. GM wont let a camaro outrun their flagship in a straight line. If they didn't, we will see a competitive 6th gen and I hope those runner controls increase low end torque. I'm telling you if they hit 200 lbs on the GT vs 14, ouch, ball is in your court GM, because the mustang just won

 

[SStormtrooPer]

So we have supposed car guys in this thread heralding the Corvette and 370Z for size and weight. The Corvette costs nearly twice as much and is a 2-seat sports car. The 370Z comes with MUCH less hp in the form of a smaller V6, and also seats 2.

These factory "lightweights" undercut the Mustang by a whopping ~ 200 lbs.


What am I missing? Put in this context, along with the fact that the Mustang's two most direct competitors are much heavier than the Mustang, it makes the Mustang look like an engineering marvel.

The 2013 M3, comparable in size and performance, weighs 3700+

Actually if you reread, there was no direct C7 comparison. That argument was that Ford was forced into this game of making the car bigger and heavier since the 90's -- and the excuse was safety equipment, rigidity, etc. The C7 example was used to prove that no one is forcing Ford to bulk up the Mustang. If Chevy can keep the Vette the same size with a reasonable weight gain, it stands to reason that Ford could have done the same.

*edit* Its also worth mentioning the Mustang used to weigh a good bit LESS than the Corvette.

It has nothing to do with what the competition is doing, and everything to do with what the enthusiasts have been asking to have happen for years now. The competition is just following the company that created the segment.

 

[91z28350]

I disagree, MOST enthusiasts do NOT necessarily want a SN95 sized Car (and this enthusiast sure as hell does not want that). The other point that you are flat out missing, they are designing this car to be able to handle 420+ hp all the way up to most likely 600+ (can't be exact since we don't know what the final numbers are on the coyote and no idea what/if a FI halo mill will make), and that takes a strong foundation. The 3200 lb car you reference is what the 93 Cobra(fox body)weighed, with a whopping 235 hp and what, 17" tire/wheel combo at best? Not mention no big brakes, none of the required government mandated safety (now not just US requirements, but Euro requirements as well) a body that doesn't want to turn in to a pretzel, etc. Here are the weights of a couple SN95's for reference: 2003 Mach 1 - 3,380 lbs.(325 hp), 2003 Cobra - 3,665 lbs (rated at 390hp) 2000 Cobra R - 3589 (385 hp). A couple SN197's: 2012 GT500 3750 (550 HP), 2013 GT Track Pack - ~3600 lbs (420HP). I just don't see them making a car as light as you want while still being able to sell a base model v6 in the ~25K range. Hey if they can, and keep the current proportions ( I admit I find the S550 quite beautiful and definitely showing her Mustang heritage), awesome! But my point with the numbers above, even the SN95 was no light weight, and the passenger protection requirements have increased dramatically since 03.

Last point, the Z06, the C6 Z06 was approximately 100 pounds less than a regular C6, and they used balsa wood cores between the floor pan, thinner glass, carbon fiber roof panel, fixed roof, less sound deadening, etc, and a 20K+ price increase. And for the new Corvette, Chevrolet's halo car, even with the use of a aluminum frame in the base models for the first time, the Z51 gained about 100 pounds. That is for a 2 seat sports car with aspirations of being counted amongst the best in the world, in a class that has an elite field of competitors.

Sponsored