COVID-19 Question.....................

[Tomster]

What scares me is that this madness is going to set a precedent. If they get away now with shutting down entire countries (actually, they don't just get away with it, but the majority of the population seems to be more than happy to see them do that), then what's to stop them from doing it again and again with each outbreak of a new kind of flu? Shall we expect to see such massive shutdowns every fall and spring from now on?

When I saw something like this in movies I always thought that's science fiction, that thing can never, ever happen in real life. But it is happening. It's not a dream. It's for real. So, how often will it happen from now on?

What do you mean by "get away with it"?

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[Vlad Soare]

I mean they do something downright appalling, something that in normal times would get you in an asylum or at least out of public life forever if you even as much as suggested it, and nobody gives a damn about it.
They forcefully shut down the entire society and cancelled most of the constitutional rights of the entire population in the name of public safety. And not only does no one seem to care, but quite the contrary, most people are more than happy to see them do it, and extremely quick in bashing everybody who dares speak against it. That's really scary.

PS. I'm talking about Europe. I don't know if it's as bad in the US. Possibly not.

 

[Coosawjack]

THIS...............is ALL ABOUT..........C-O-N-T-R-O-L........and how well we comply..........wait and see what happens......it just may surprise ya!!

 

[kilobravo]

I'm shaking my head, fellas...

Vlad: What Constitutional Rights have been taken away, I'm curious?

 

[Tomster]

THIS...………...is ALL ABOUT...…...SAVING-PEOPLE'S-LIVES...……AND-STOPPING-THE-SPREAD-OF-THIS-HIGHLY-INFECTIOUS-VIRUS...…...and so far, I am appalled by some of the comments I have read.

What a bunch of whacko conspiracy theorists...……….

 

[SouthernCyclone]

Some stupid conspiracy theorist in this thread. People are dying world wide and you think it’s some kind of conspiracy. Next thing your going to tell me aliens are going to fly down and save you from this.

 

[Venomous Pony]

I thinks it best to just ignore the foil hats in the room and not give them the attention they so badly crave.

 

[Vlad Soare]

I never said it was a conspiracy.
Anyway, this has become a religious thread. It's starting to feel like arguing whether Jesus is better than Muhammad - each side will defend its beliefs and nothing good will come out of it. So I'm out of here. I wish everybody a happy quarantine.
See you in the technical threads, where we can talk about nicer things.

 

[Caballus]

I'm shaking my head, fellas...

Vlad: What Constitutional Rights have been taken away, I'm curious?

Not qualified to speak for Vlad, KB, so I won't try. However, being someone who has worked closely with Romania and Romanians for some time now, I will offer a single American perspective (mine only) on a Romanian concern:

Romanians did not emerge from the Cold War through a peaceful transition as say E. Germany did. They shed blood to overthrow Ceausescu and break from communism. They then spent the next two decades reforming their system and proving their commitment to Western democracy--worked hard to join the EU and NATO, one of our staunchest Allies in Afghanistan, were very committed in Iraq and many other conflicts. In addition to having Russia threatening Romanian territorial sovereignty everyday ("peacekeeprs" in Tranistria), Russia invaded and stole land from their neighbor (Ukraine--Crimea & Donbas).

Now, in response to COVID, they have what looks very similar to the martial law of the relatively recent past--curfews, etc.

If I were Romanian, I imagine I would be very alert to the potential of going "back to the future" as well. Not saying the measures are not sound or that the Romanian government has ill design. Just saying that considering the history, the measures may be perceived differently by Romanians than by friends who have different historical perspectives.

 

[kilobravo]

That makes a lot of sense, Cab...thanks.

 

[Epiphany]

Romanian strippers are hawt. Speaking for a friend.

 

[Caballus]

Example of @Vlad Soare 's point. Just across his NW border:

"The Bill debated in parliament on Monday would allow populist prime minister Viktor Orban’s government to rule by decree under a current state of emergency that it could extend indefinitely, without recourse to parliament, if the Covid-19 outbreak made it impossible to gather a quorum of deputies.

It would also introduce a jail term of up to five years for anyone found guilty of spreading false information that caused public alarm or hampered efforts to contain the pandemic, and up to eight years for breaking isolation or quarantine rules."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...ed-of-using-pandemic-for-power-grab-1.4210181

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-n...oronavirus-peak-expected-in-the-coming-weeks/

 

[Vlad Soare]

I promised not to post in this thread anymore, because some people have such a deeply ingrained belief in safety at any cost, and are so deeply convinced that anybody who dares speak against that is an utter imbecile, that no amount of reasoning would change anything other than just piss them off - which I don't want to do.
But I'll break my promise just once, not to try and convince anyone, but just to explain what's currently happening in Romania (and most of continental Europe for that matter).

Apart from the military, who have no authority over civilians in times of peace, there are basically three law enforcement institutions here.
1. There's the proper Police, which is the exact counterpart of the police force of most countries. It's akin to LAPD, or NYPD, or the Polizei in Germany, or the Police in France, etc. These are mostly smart, highly trained people, who operate within the boundaries of the law and are held accountable if they cross the line (which they very rarely do).
2. There's what they call 'Local Police', which is a misnomer because they are not proper policemen. They did not graduate a police school and are not subordinated to the Ministry of Internal Affairs (like the proper Police is). Instead, they are subordinated to the local councils and are a kind of wardens, in charge with enforcing local policies - like no stepping on the grass in parks, no picking up flowers from parks, no unauthorized commerce in public places, things like that. They also have just a bit of power in traffic matters, just for a very small subset of offences, like illegal parking or driving the wrong way on one-way streets. The closest I can come to a Western concept in describing them are what the British call the PCSO.
These are mostly simple people, without too much in the way of education, who just needed a job. They sometimes tend to go beyond their authority (usually with easy victims, like women and elderly) and are quite difficult to hold accountable for that, though that tendency seems to have waned in recent years. Simple, uneducated people fear them like they fear the proper Police (most can't even tell the difference), while educated people see them for what they are and tend to laugh at them (sometimes unfairly, I must say, because many of them do a pretty good job).
3. There's the Jandarmerie, named after the French Gendarmerie, though in practice it's not the same thing. This is a militarized force, though it's not part of the military proper, but subordinated to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, like the Police. In theory they're in charge of maintaining public order at various events, like football matches, demonstrations, etc. In practice they're also used by the ruling party as some kind of SA troups, to beat and gas people who dare demonstrate against them. Many of them are thick, barely literate bullies who enjoy beating people, and who took up this job for the sole reason that it allows them to do that legally. They hit first and ask questions later. We often refer to them as 'my fists has no brains' (bad grammar intended).
They're practically above the law; I can't think of even one instance of a jandarm punished in any way for his deeds, ever.

There are jokes about them. One of them goes like this: a jandarm goes into a book shop and says:
"I've heard there's a new book called Who Is the Jandarms And What Does They Wants"
"Yes, there is, but it's sold out"
"That's OK, I'll buy it anyway"

So, in short, we have:
1. Real policemen, who do their job properly.
2. Wardens who are sometimes useful, sometimes useless, and generally pretty harmless.
3. Bullies who are quick to beat the hell out of anybody who stands in their way, and who are above the law.

Normally, categories 2 and 3 don't interfere too much, if at all, with one's normal life. As long as you mind your own business and don't do anything wrong, category 2 will leave you alone. And as long as you don't go to football matches or to any such gathering where violence is likely, or don't participate in demonstrations against the ruling party, you won't get in contact with category 3.

What's happening these days? Well, let me see, I don't even know where to start.
We're not allowed to go out of our houses unless there's a very good reason (there's a very short list of what the government deems a 'good reason'). Even then, you must be able to justify it, and you're liable to major fines, and in special cases even detainment, if you can't, or if they don't believe you, or if they believe you could have avoided it somehow. We're not allowed any medical treatment, unless we can prove it's an emergency (but there's no definition of what's deemed an emergency). We're not allowed to be seen in the street together with someone else unless we can prove that we share the same address. And so on, the list is long.
And the entities responsible with enforcing these rules are all of those mentioned above, but especially category 3.

So, if you go buy some bread, or simply walk your dog, you need to have a pre-printed page with you, on which you put your complete personal identification data and you state the reason why you're out of the house. In the street you're stopped by a group of category 3 bullies, who request to see your ID and that pre-printed form, then decide whether they allow you to pass, or send you home because your reason is not good enough for them. Or conversely, decide to give you a hefty fine and threaten to do worse if you dare argue with them. The decision is at their full discretion. Everybody is guilty until proven innocent.
There already are reports of people mocked and scolded by jandarms on the grounds that their reasons for being in the street were deemed unimportant, or that they were deemed to be too far away from their houses (like 500 meters or so).
A colleague of mine is pregnant. This pregnancy is extremely important for her and her husband, as they tried for a long time and had almost lost hope. She needs to have an echography really soon. Whether she will be able to have it or not will depend on the mood a jandarm will be in when she meets him in the street. It's not clear what 'emergency' means. It's not clear whether an echography can be described as an emergency to a blockhead who's interested in showing off his newly acquired powers. She may be able to explain it to him, he may even understand and let her pass, but the very fact that she needs to do that is extremely frustrating and humiliating. Even if she has that echography, she might need treatment later on that she might not be able to get, because it's not clear what medical facilities will still be open (theoretically, only those treating 'urgent' cases are allowed to be, whatever 'urgent' means).
And so on.
Ah, let's not forget, the justice system is shut down. If you get fined unlawfully, you've got no recourse against it. And even if you had, the martial law that's currently in force is phrased so vaguely that the law enforcement agencies have practically discretionary powers to interpret it any way they see fit. So fighting the ticket in court would be mostly pointless anyway even if you could do it.

In practice, it's probably not that grim. You're not likely to get a fine or get in any kind of trouble as long as you don't do something stupid. They'll either let you go about your business, or send you back home under the promise that you'll be a good boy from now on. Unless you argue with them you'll be fine. But just having to go through that process is a humiliating experience in my opinion.

Never, not even in my darkest nightmares, not even during the communist regime or the bleak and uncertain years that followed that, did I ever come even close to imagining that one day I will have to justify my decision and my right to go out of the house to a despicable bully. The very thought of it disgusts me.

OK, rant over. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. It's just that I feel like the king in the poisoned well story. I feel like everybody is going insane around me, and my only chance is to drink from the well and become insane as well.
Sorry about the long post. That's it from me. Let's talk about Mustangs now.

 

[lateinthegame]

For people, right? I don't know if that applies to goods.

They better not stop my supply of Crown Royal. I will really be sober. And nobody wants that

 

[lateinthegame]

I think we need to start a list of acceptable things to put in your mouth....

1. Steak
2. Alcohol
3. A woman's nipples
4. Alcohol
5.

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