274 vs 285 vs brushless

[Basspro302]

Looking at doing a radium hat and looking for opinions on on pumps. Is twin 274s enough on e85 to support 900whp? Brushless ti e5lm pump looks like a solid option but any one have experience with it? Looking for a reliable setup i put a ton of miles on my car. Car is a 19 gen 5 whipple.

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[illtal]

Looking at doing a radium hat and looking for opinions on on pumps. Is twin 274s enough on e85 to support 900whp? Brushless ti e5lm pump looks like a solid option but any one have experience with it? Looking for a reliable setup i put a ton of miles on my car. Car is a 19 gen 5 whipple.

Yes you can make 900 with two 274 pumps. There are other options out there other than the E5LM pump for brushless.

 

[bankyf]

I have a radium hat with two fuelab brushless pumps installed that I'd probably be willing to sell at a reasonable price if you decide to go that route. Everything is brand new, only opened up to assemble.

I actually ordered the hat for the e5lm pumps, but the pumps and drivers were huge, so I returned the pumps and ordered the fuelab pumps and necessary parts from radium to convert the hat back to a normal size pump. It seems that most failures in these multi pump systems seem to be related to the brushes eating themselves. That, in addition to the reduced amperage draw is why I had chosen to go brushless.

 

[Angrey]

The LM pump or BKS1000 (affectionately known as the "bugatti" pump) from what I understand is very loud/noisy. Not a big deal to most people, but from what I've read/heard, you can actually hear the pump in certain conditions.

Aside from that, it's an ASSUMPTION that it can be boosted (voltage) and survive. It's not a bad assumption, but there are other aftermarket brushless pumps on the market that come with certification that they can be safely boosted.

I would go with either fuelab brushless pumps or DW440's.

The advertised flow rate (at 3 bar) for the LM pump is 590 liter/hour.

The BKS 1000 is about $100 more than a DW440, which flows 440 at 40 psi (roughly 3 bar).

The BKS1000 probably won't be able to get you to 900 rear without boosting (at desired pressure of say 70-75 psi). So you'll most likely have to buy a booster.

When you run the numbers, a pair of DW440 or fuel lab brushless is roughly the same cost as a BKS1000 + voltage booster.

My pair of DW440's have supported 1125 rwhp unboosted (13.5V) but we actually found and documented that was the absolute limit. (this is with an 8 AN feed, might be slighly higher with a 10AN feed or bigger).

In summary, a pair of DW or FL brushless will get you to your rwhp goal with room to spare and no booster and cost roughly the same as the BKS1000 pump + booster. The BKS1000 + booster will probably have the same or a little more capability than the pairs if you boost to 18V.

The DW offers more controller options.

Lastly, the BKS1000 pump does not have an internal check valve, so you'll need to install one in line somewhere if you want to prevent grumpy starts and backfeeding of the fuel when turned off.

As far as I'm aware, the Radium hat is the only "reservoir" on the market that will accomodate the BKS1000 and it's very long dimension. I don't even know if there any "hanger" style that are offered to run it. Radium and some others offer surge tank options that will accommodate it.

The DW pumps are small enough to go in just about any hat/configuration with some clever spacing adjustments (I think the casing is 43mm instead of the traditional 45mm of the typical TI pumps).

I've spoken directly with DW and they've verified that you can run their brushless pumps full time boosted at 18V and intermittently to 22V.

So if you ever wanted to go REALLY wild, the pair of DW440 boosted would have way more capacity than the BKS1000 route.

You MIGHT actually get away with a single DW440 boosted to 18V, but it would be about the same cost as the pair of them without the booster.

 

[illtal]

You can do all of that OR just get ONE of these:
https://deatschwerks.com/collections/dw810

 

[bankyf]

You can do all of that OR just get ONE of these:
https://deatschwerks.com/collections/dw810

Why stop with that when you can get ONE of these:

https://aeromotiveinc.com/product/b...2017-mustang-s197-s550-2018-2020-gt-ecoboost/

I can make someone a real good deal on one of these as well.

 

[Angrey]

You can do all of that OR just get ONE of these:
https://deatschwerks.com/collections/dw810

At first I jumped, hadn't seen that. No check valve and can't be boosted more than 14.5V. Also draws quite a bit for the flow/output. I don't think one pump with an external check valve and all the system friction losses would get to 900 rwhp (especially if partial leak due to the siphon system)

 

[illtal]

At first I jumped, hadn't seen that. No check valve and can't be boosted more than 14.5V. Also draws quite a bit for the flow/output. I don't think one pump with an external check valve and all the system friction losses would get to 900 rwhp (especially if partial leak due to the siphon system)

All you need is the flow, it flows more than two 274 pumps at 55 psi. 2 274 pumps can make 900 on E85. No need to boost the 810. The two 496 pumps that I have would still out flow one of these, but for the cost and ease of setup this is probably going to be a more potent set-up with failures in mind for a two pump setup.

 

[illtal]

Why stop with that when you can get ONE of these:

https://aeromotiveinc.com/product/b...2017-mustang-s197-s550-2018-2020-gt-ecoboost/

I can make someone a real good deal on one of these as well.

That thing doesn't have a bucket and it is probably loud as shit.
Now if it doesn't matter to you this may be a nice option.

 

[illtal]

 

[Angrey]

All you need is the flow, it flows more than two 274 pumps at 55 psi. 2 274 pumps can make 900 on E85. No need to boost the 810. The two 496 pumps that I have would still out flow one of these, but for the cost and ease of setup this is probably going to be a more potent set-up with failures in mind for a two pump setup.

It's better to compare at the target pressure, which is around 70-75 psi (base pressure + boost to make 900 rwhp). At 70 psi, the 810 flows just over 700 l/h. At 70 psi the 274 flows roughly 355 l/h. So a pair of them would have virtually equivlanet flow to the 810.

The main differences being A) the 810 doesn't have a check valve, so an external would have to be installed in the feed line, which is usually a couple of PSI pressure drop (slight reduction in flow at sustained 70 psi) and B) the 810 does not have provisions for the siphon system, so that would have to be plumbed internal to the bucket. Not a big deal, just FY and C) the 274's can be boosted, the 810 states that boosting it over 14.5V will not result in an increase in output, essentially you get what you get.

Cost wise, it's probably a couple hundo cheaper to go with twin 274's (if you need the controller version of the 810).

Essentially, it would work, just require a bit more customization (check valve and siphon connection) but would be more efficient in that at idle conditions the 810 draws around 25 amps, whereas a pair of 274's at idle will draw around 32-33 amps together.

In summary, you get a little bit more efficient system, for a couple hundred more, but have very little room to grow in the future unless you add another pump (instead of boosting).

 

[HKusp]

Fuel bucket unless you want to effectively cut your fuel tank in half because you need the fuel pump submersed. If you are building a track only car, and that track is the drag strip, it's no big deal, but if not, you want the pumps continuously submerged or you are going to run the risk of running lean. The twin ti274's in the Radium hat is a nice choice. They'll support more than 900whp.

 

[Ph363]

Is the tank level really that drastic for open pump hangers? I have the same concern and keep going back and forth between arcane and fore.

 

[Angrey]

Is the tank level really that drastic for open pump hangers? I have the same concern and keep going back and forth between arcane and fore.

It depends on several factors. How much torque, how much grip and how much power the car is making. This will govern how hard the car can accelerate (forcing fuel rearward) and how long it can keep the fuel pushed. In stock or mild builds or "track" setups without grippy forward suspension, it's less of a concern (but not totally eliminated). I suspect plenty of guys running the naked pumps that don't log have seen lean conditions or conditions where the motor is starving for fuel, but the computer adjusts adding as much fuel as it can through the short term trims and if it doesn't blow up, they don't figure it's an issue because they're not seeing/logging the risk.

There's a similar issue in manual transmissions where all the trans fluid rushes to the rear away from the front rotating components and if that's sustained for longer periods of time, the front components are subjected to heat spikes which can lead or contribute to failure. Tick performance offers bung installs and pumps to prevent this from happening. But again, the more stout the build, the more it becomes a concern.

If I'm putting massive amounts of money into a motor setup, I don't want the car to be subjected to potentially lean conditions ever, (which lack of fuel being one of the biggest catastrophic risks to a motor).

The last piece, which is generally the old school mentality is to solve the problem, just don't run low on fuel, and if you do, drive it like an old couple in the middle of the work rush hour.

Which solves the problem, but restricts how the car can be used, employed and enjoyed. Combine the effects of E85 (greatly reduced range) and it starts to be more than some obscure nuisance or concern to keep the fuel level above 1/2 tank. I can get about 140 miles of range out of my car if I baby it the entire way. And that's with the last 20 miles being pucker city wondering when I'm going to run out of fuel. If I'm flogging the car and hooning, I can get as low as 100 miles out of a tank before I start getting nervous. To put that into perspective, imagine driving 50 miles and having to stop to get E85 just to keep the motor safe or being forced to baby it after that until a refuel (which is already more frequent).

Check out the 5:00 mark of this video:

 

[illtal]

Is the tank level really that drastic for open pump hangers? I have the same concern and keep going back and forth between arcane and fore.

Some people get away with the "open" design. But you can easily calculate how much fuel can be moved with one of these systems and you will then know there needs to be a way to keep fuel around the pumps. This is why OEMs do not design them without a surge style bucket system or a baffle system. In a loaded G situation or sustained medium g left hand turns you will in effect move fuel away from the pickup without one of these systems.

Now if you're just driving along the highway or in town there's no reason why there should be a problem. The venturi system works well enough to keep the "active" side of the tank full. You will also have the fuel retun to keep the active side full.

Problem is the "level" that you see isn't always 50/50 for each side, it is interpolated based on the position of each level sender in the tank. So in effect you could have some combination of fuel in each tank if it isn't FULL.

All it takes is a faction of a second with air in the fuel line to lose an engine if you are in boost. there are ways to keep fuel around these open systems. But I personally don't recommend them.
The Radium hat is tall and skinny, has 2 one way check valves, and will do a better job of keeping fuel in and around the pumps.

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