2015 GT PP Hard Starting Issue

[jbird60]

I left the battery off for 4-5 hours, and when I finished I plugged the battery back up and she fired right up. Now I know it should have had it's long start issue with that amount of time sitting so that part has me stumped..

This part, I believe, bolsters the theory that there's a problem with the fuel pump/check valve assembly. Pulling the battery for long enough resets KAM (keep alive memory) in the PCM. As a result, when you reconnect it, the PCM will operate the fuel pump as if the fuel lines are empty, thus running it continuously in order to fill the lines and pressurize them enough to get a good engine start.

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[KA06GT]

This part, I believe, bolsters the theory that there's a problem with the fuel pump/check valve assembly. Pulling the battery for long enough resets KAM (keep alive memory) in the PCM. As a result, when you reconnect it, the PCM will operate the fuel pump as if the fuel lines are empty, thus running it continuously in order to fill the lines and pressurize them enough to get a good engine start.

This makes complete sense to me. At only 14K miles I'm not liking the fact the IAT sensor for sure went bad, I'm getting the dreaded Evap whine, and now potentially the fuel sending unit might be on it's way out as well.

Hey, if I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all!

Thanks everyone for the replies and thoughts so far. Keep em' coming! I'll keep everyone update with what Ford says when I get the car back next week or the week after.

 

[KA06GT]

I dropped the car off at Ford yesterday afternoon with a laundry list of things to look at:

1.) The long start/smoking issue
2.)Climate control whine and A/C not cold
3.)Passenger turn signal outermost LED strip sometimes doesn't light up causing a fast flash on the dash indicator when turning right
4.) Install the replacement Inlet Air Temp Sensor
5.) Front end alignment while it's waiting on service (not a problem but wanted to make sure it's all in spec after 14K miles)

I know it doesn't help them a great deal, but I have taken videos of all of the above problems from both inside and outside the car on several different occasions just as a reference for what's going on, but the service manager basically refused to even look at them stating "If we can't recreate the problem there is nothing we can do." Which I understand to a point, but when I've brought the car in several times, from several towns away offering to show you proof there are problems I figured they would have at least humored me and watched what was going on.

For problem number 3.) FORD has even posted a service bulletin about the turn signal indicator partial outage stating that the issue may be due to the BCMB needing a new update flashed, so I printed that off and took in with me and they wouldn't even look at that.

https://ford.oemdtc.com/1964/rear-tail-lamp-turn-lamp-or-stop-lamp-partial-outage-dtcs-b1271-b1272-b1273-b1274-b1275-or-b1276-2015-2016-ford-mustang

I left them the keys and told them to keep it for a week or however long they needed to diagnosis/fix everything because it's hard for me to keep taking time off work and get it up there during business hours and find a way back home when I have to leave it.

I'm still always as cordial and professional as I can be, but if this doesn't work I have no idea what to do next.

 

[KA06GT]

Small update. Ford called me yesterday and said the alignment was taken care of, and they had the new inlet air temp sensor installed and the check engine light was gone.

Even better news is that they finally were able to recreate the turn signal issue. No update on what they planned to do, just the fact that they witnessed it firsthand.

They claim to have still not been able to recreate the long start issue, even though I told them exactly what would make it occur. So who ever started the car and moved into in the bay yesterday before any service began obviously was not the technician working on it because I can 100% guarantee it did it when it was fired up after sitting all night.

Anyways, some progress is a lot better than no progress!

 

[ManBearPig]

You are handling this remarkably better than I would.


Hope they get it sorted soon.

 

[KA06GT]

You are handling this remarkably better than I would.


Hope they get it sorted soon.

I'm trying to keep it together, but they are testing my patience pretty hard.

I live over an hour away from the dealership and their service department is only open while I'm at work, so the most frustrating part is taking off work trying to get it up there during service hours and if I have to leave the car finding someone willing to drive 2+ hours twice to pick me up then take me home and then take me back when the car is "finished". Ford has yet to offer a loaner, but if this keeps happening they're going to have to do something so I can get back home. I have an F-150 as well, so I don't need the loaner to daily drive but it's hard with everyone's work schedule to find a ride back home then back to the dealership.

I think I'm going to go ahead and post all of my other videos of the issues in this thread in case I have to get a Ford Service Rep involved, that way all the proof is in the same place. (Hopefully that doesn't have to happen though)

 

[KA06GT]

Another update from Ford. I called them just to see if they had made anymore progress and they told me I can pick up the car.

They think replacing the Inlet Air Temp sensor has fixed the long start issue (even though they admitted to me they never even once got it to do it) so my hopes aren't high that has been resolved, but maybe they'll surprise me.

The only way I believe that could have been the issue is if ECM has a remembrance time of the fuel/air tables, as in "Oh it took this AFR to start it earlier while reading -35 degrees IAT, so lets give it the same A/F ratio to start now too since it's still at -35 degrees" and then after 4 hours or so of sitting powered off the car forgets and has to start the process over hence the long start.

Not sure how Ford engineered it, but that to me could be the only case of that sensor causing it. Keep in mind my profession is in IT and not a Ford mechanic, although I do all of my repairs/mods in my garage with my own tools, this is my first time dealing with a dealership's warranty/service department,so all of my thoughts are just educated guesses since I haven't taken anything apart to see for myself for fear of void that warranty.

For the tail light issue, they said they did not flash the BCMB that controls the lights even though Ford Motor Company listed that procedure in a service bulletin and I had even printed it off and brought in with me. They have ordered a new passenger side tail light believe that will correct the issue, even though I know 100% that it wont, because when the issue is happening I've unplugged the light and tested voltage at the plug itself before even getting to the light and it's dropping voltage coming out of the BCM. The plugs for both lights are identical so I then plugged it in on the driver side and it works just fine, so I'm a little upset about that because that will be another wasted trip to get the light installed. Then I'll have to take it back when that doesn't fix it.

Now as for the climate control whine. They claim to have never been able to replicate the problem, my video(s) is worth nothing, and when I mentioned the whole evaporator failure that is a widely known issue the service manager stated he thinks they've never had to replace one of those. He stated that he thinks the IAT sensor has fixed my "cooling" issue as well, but I just can't see how inlet air temp controls my A/C temp and how it could make an ungodly whining noise. So I'm positive that I'm going to have to take it back again for that as well.

I will be attaching all of my videos in my next post just for reference.

Thanks everyone who have been commenting and giving insight up to this point. Stay tuned because I'm sure it's only about to get more interesting!

 

[AlyourPal]

Good god. I'd start looking into lemon laws.

 

[M151A2]

I would rather stick a hot poker in my eye than go to a dealership for repairs.
GM dealerships aren’t any better.

 

[KA06GT]

Good god. I'd start looking into lemon laws.

It is a headache, but to me as long as they are at least trying I hope to not have to go that far.

My concern with lemon law is that I bought the car private party (because one dealership s#@$%ed me over on a 2016 and this particular dealership looked for weeks trying to find me a car and when they couldn't deliver I purchased it from an individual) which would be considered a used vehicle and in KY my understanding is that if it's a used vehicle I have no rights to a lemon law.

This was directly from KY's Attorney General's website and in bold:

There is NO statutory right to cancel the sale, even if done immediately. Likewise, there is NO used car lemon law.

So no lemon law talks for me! I never want to give up on something anyways, so if Ford doesn't help, when the factory warranty is over I'll start working on the issues on my own. I do hope they replace the evap core before then, because I really don't want to disassemble and remove the dash, but I will if I need too. To me, half the fun of owning a car is wrenching on it (except for the cost of parts..)

 

[KA06GT]

I would rather stick a hot poker in my eye than go to a dealership for repairs.
GM dealerships aren’t any better.

I 110% agree with you on this statement. I've always heard horror stories about dealing with dealership's service department, but like a bad infomercial, I never thought it would happen to me!

 

[KA06GT]

As promised here are the other videos of the issues I'm having. This thread has sort of turned into an all list of my problems with my Mustang, so it's nice to have it all in one place in case I ever need to reference this thread to someone,

Climate Control Whine (You'll notice that it happens as I turn the front defroster on and off, but the rear defrost is on just for testing purposes. The rear defrost doesn't affect it since it doesn't use the evap/hvac canister or blower motor in any way, it's just a heated circuit.) :



Turn Signal Issue:



This video is of the hazard lights in the dark to better show exactly which LED bar isn't illuminating:

 

[KA06GT]

Well, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong when needed and it looks like I was wrong!

By the time I got to dealership yesterday afternoon to pick up the car the service department was long gone, but they had left my keys with a salesman to pick up. When I arrived the car was outside and hood and engine bay were cold, but I had asked the salesman to walk out with me just in case the issue happened that way someone at Ford could say they witnessed it. I hit the button, and she fired right up without the least hesitation. Cylinder head temps were low indicating the car had been off for a pretty long time and Inlet Air Temp was reading almost ambient air temps letting me know it was functioning correctly.

Since I couldn't be sure exactly how long it had been sitting off, I figured that was a good sign, but I wouldn't get to excited about it just in case. Well I'm happy to report that I parked it in the garage last night, shut it off, and left it. Went out this morning and it fired up with no issues and no smoke. This is only the second cold start, but I dare say, the issue might have actually been the IAT sensor!

As for the climate whine, it's always happened while driving, but this morning it actually started when I turned the car on (I left the climate on Auto last night when I turned it off) in the garage. It's incredible loud from outside the car so I popped the hood and it got louder. I got out my mechanics stethoscope and it's definitely the compressor making the whining, so maybe my evap core is okay and it's the compressor causing the A/C not to be cold. Does any one know if the heat/defrost has any bearing on the compressor? Because as previously stated it happens on heat/defrost/AC.

I had a big smile on my face when it shot to life almost instantly this morning

I'll keep everyone update though in case anyone else has this long start issue in the future, and hopefully a resolution on the other issues soon!

 

[GrabberBlue5oh]

Well, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong when needed and it looks like I was wrong!

By the time I got to dealership yesterday afternoon to pick up the car the service department was long gone, but they had left my keys with a salesman to pick up. When I arrived the car was outside and hood and engine bay were cold, but I had asked the salesman to walk out with me just in case the issue happened that way someone at Ford could say they witnessed it. I hit the button, and she fired right up without the least hesitation. Cylinder head temps were low indicating the car had been off for a pretty long time and Inlet Air Temp was reading almost ambient air temps letting me know it was functioning correctly.

Since I couldn't be sure exactly how long it had been sitting off, I figured that was a good sign, but I wouldn't get to excited about it just in case. Well I'm happy to report that I parked it in the garage last night, shut it off, and left it. Went out this morning and it fired up with no issues and no smoke. This is only the second cold start, but I dare say, the issue might have actually been the IAT sensor!

As for the climate whine, it's always happened while driving, but this morning it actually started when I turned the car on (I left the climate on Auto last night when I turned it off) in the garage. It's incredible loud from outside the car so I popped the hood and it got louder. I got out my mechanics stethoscope and it's definitely the compressor making the whining, so maybe my evap core is okay and it's the compressor causing the A/C not to be cold. Does any one know if the heat/defrost has any bearing on the compressor? Because as previously stated it happens on heat/defrost/AC.

I had a big smile on my face when it shot to life almost instantly this morning

I'll keep everyone update though in case anyone else has this long start issue in the future, and hopefully a resolution on the other issues soon!

just as I suspected. Any temperature sensor that the PCM uses to control fuel mixture and running conditions will have a huge impact on engine performance when it’s malfunctioning. Also, to answer ur question about AC. The car will run the ac in defrost mode to dry out the air before it hits the windshield, otherwise the windshield would fog up

 

[KA06GT]

just as I suspected. Any temperature sensor that the PCM uses to control fuel mixture and running conditions will have a huge impact on engine performance when it’s malfunctioning. Also, to answer ur question about AC. The car will run the ac in defrost mode to dry out the air before it hits the windshield, otherwise the windshield would fog up

That does seem to be the case! I guess I just wasn't expecting it to rely that heavily on the IAT sensor, I was looking at it from my experience working on older things I suppose. Either way, I'm extremely happy I was wrong because she's been great all day and it seems my average MPG has improved as well which is always a plus!

Now I am 100% sure the replacement tail light wont fix the turn signal issue, because today for the first time the driver side started doing it but with the middle LED bar. Exact same scenario as the passenger side. Oh well, just something I'll mention to Ford when I call them on Tuesday to let them know the sensor fixed the long start issue and that the whining is coming from the compressor.

Hope everyone has a Happy New Year!:cheers:

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