2015 GT PP Hard Starting Issue

[jbird60]

jbird60, this was my thinking with hitting the button a few times before startup, but it appears it only primes the system for a very short amount of time and doesn't do it everytime you hit the button without your foot on the clutch.

Makes sense. I should have added that after the pump has primed a few times, it won't prime anymore independent of fuel pressure (this is done just in case the fuel pressure sensor is not functioning, in which case the pump will assume there are no leaks and will not try to keep pressurizing the system).

My dilemma now is that Ford swears up and down they can never get the problem to replicate and that my video(s) (I have several showing different scenarios) aren't good enough for them to start testing anything. :tsk:

Kind of a lame excuse on the dealership's part. It's simply a matter of timing. I'd say if you were ok with not having your car overnight, they should let it sit and try again in the morning. That should for sure be long enough to demonstrate what you're experiencing given you can make it happen on a much shorter interval.

Also, the check valve is built into the in-tank fuel pump unit. So if it has gone bad, then the entire pump assembly would be replaced.

Sponsored

 

[KA06GT]

Kind of a lame excuse on the dealership's part. It's simply a matter of timing. I'd say if you were ok with not having your car overnight, they should let it sit and try again in the morning. That should for sure be long enough to demonstrate what you're experiencing given you can make it happen on a much shorter interval.

Also, the check valve is built into the in-tank fuel pump unit. So if it has gone bad, then the entire pump assembly would be replaced.

I agree! Worst part is they are the closest Ford dealer to me, and over an hour away, and their service department is only open during my work hours, so it's a struggle to get it up their to them since they refused to come get the car to troubleshoot.

Yeah if they let it sit all morning, then fire it up about mid-day the issue will 100% happen, though they claim it hasn't.

I'm used to trouble-shooting and doing the work myself, so this having to wait on the dealer when they are in the mood to help is frustrating.

So the only check-valve in the entire system is in the pump?

I didn't drive the car to work today, so I can't run outside and look, but do one of the fuel rails have a Schrader valve to check fuel pressure? I can get a gauge and hook it up before a cold start to monitor pressure and make sure it's even a fuel issue (90% sure it is though)

 

[jbird60]

So the only check-valve in the entire system is in the pump?

Yep. No other valves in the system before you get to the injectors.

I didn't drive the car to work today, so I can't run outside and look, but do one of the fuel rails have a Schrader valve to check fuel pressure? I can get a gauge and hook it up before a cold start to monitor pressure and make sure it's even a fuel issue (90% sure it is though)

Unfortunately no, the rails are sealed with the exception of the inlet quick connect port and the injector mounts. They don't make it very easy to do your own pressure testing :shrug:

With respect to pressure testing though, this is something that the dealership should be able to do. Their in-house testing tools should be capable of reading fuel pressure from the ECM. If they watch that pressure from the moment they hit the start button to when the pump stops spinning, they should (hopefully) see that the initial and final pressures are too low, in which case they should replace the pump. This would require them to let the car sit in one of their workbays though, and I'm gonna guess they'd be against that as it's a hit to their productivity.

Short of that, if you have an OBD2 tool that can give you live readings, Mode 1 PID 0A is fuel pressure.

 

[AlyourPal]

Wow, the start in that video is terrible. What happens if you pump the gas pedal a little while it's trying? I would be 100% furious at Ford if they were treating me like that.

 

[ManBearPig]

I'm sorry I don't have anything valuable to add here but I'm very curious to see what you find.

It's most definitely got to be a fuel delivery issue. Strange that it runs ok otherwise.

 

[VinnAY]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

The car is 100% stock running normal pump gas.

Ford already has the air inlet temp sensor ordered, so I'll just let them replace that since warranty covered it. But I'll pull the MAF and spray it just to be on the safe side!




VinnAY can you elaborate a little more on what you're meaning?

Sounds more like there's a fuel delivery problem to the engine, bad gas, fuel pump perhaps is on it's way out.

 

[HISSMAN]

Definitely a fuel problem. Most likely a bad pressure sensor. Once the pumps prime and the sensor reads the correct pressure, then the pumps won't prime again until the pressure bleeds off. However, if the sensor is going bad, then it won't know that it isn't seeing enough pressure, and most likely will not throw a code. I think that there is also a check valve that is supposed to keep the fuel pressure up after the pumps are primed. This could also be the culprit.

 

[KA06GT]

Yep. No other valves in the system before you get to the injectors.


Unfortunately no, the rails are sealed with the exception of the inlet quick connect port and the injector mounts. They don't make it very easy to do your own pressure testing :shrug:

With respect to pressure testing though, this is something that the dealership should be able to do. Their in-house testing tools should be capable of reading fuel pressure from the ECM. If they watch that pressure from the moment they hit the start button to when the pump stops spinning, they should (hopefully) see that the initial and final pressures are too low, in which case they should replace the pump. This would require them to let the car sit in one of their workbays though, and I'm gonna guess they'd be against that as it's a hit to their productivity.

Short of that, if you have an OBD2 tool that can give you live readings, Mode 1 PID 0A is fuel pressure.

I do have an OBD2 scanner, but I have to go in and manually tell it what PIDs I want to see, so if Ford refuses to help I'll go down that route. Thanks for the info!

Wow, the start in that video is terrible. What happens if you pump the gas pedal a little while it's trying? I would be 100% furious at Ford if they were treating me like that.

I have been a loyal Ford customer for a long time, and currently own my S550 Mustang and an FX4 F-150 (my fourth F-150 along with all my previous Mustangs) but I've just not been satisfied lately with either of the closest dealerships to me (an hour either direction). I put a deposit down on an S550 from one dealership just to have them call me to tell me someone else put a deposit after me and it was "first come, first served" so I immediately requested my deposit back and said I'd never take my business there again so that rules out one dealership near me, and the other is not being helpful at all. It's been two weeks since I've heard from them so I called this morning and got transferred to an answering machine and never received a call back after leaving a message.

As far as pumping the gas during start up, I tried that and the car took even longer to start and had more trouble clearing up after it fired.

Definitely a fuel problem. Most likely a bad pressure sensor. Once the pumps prime and the sensor reads the correct pressure, then the pumps won't prime again until the pressure bleeds off. However, if the sensor is going bad, then it won't know that it isn't seeing enough pressure, and most likely will not throw a code. I think that there is also a check valve that is supposed to keep the fuel pressure up after the pumps are primed. This could also be the culprit.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'll embed a video from outside the car on a cold start up. My garage was between 50-55 degrees so it was by no means freezing cold, but the car had been sitting all night. From outside you'll see smoke that is excessive, but only happens on the cold start ups, doesn't smoke any other time other than cold start up.

Now I know the Coyote's have a pretty bad PVC blow-by issue, so I actually ran dual catch cans on my last 5.0L, so that may just be from having such a long cranking time that it's sucking excess oil because I don't have a catch can on it, but I'm not sure.

Another odd thing to mention. I was working on finding an unrelated interior rattle, that turned out to be from the rear B-pillar area, so since there is an airbag along basically the entire side near your head I unhooked the battery. I left the battery off for 4-5 hours, and when I finished I plugged the battery back up and she fired right up. Now I know it should have had it's long start issue with that amount of time sitting so that part has me stumped..

Do we have any Ford Reps on this board? I know Deysha is on AFM which I am also a member, but I don't want to have the same topic open over there just for her to see it. I may PM her on AFM a link to this topic if no reps are active here.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[GrabberBlue5oh]

I do have an OBD2 scanner, but I have to go in and manually tell it what PIDs I want to see, so if Ford refuses to help I'll go down that route. Thanks for the info!



I have been a loyal Ford customer for a long time, and currently own my S550 Mustang and an FX4 F-150 (my fourth F-150 along with all my previous Mustangs) but I've just not been satisfied lately with either of the closest dealerships to me (an hour either direction). I put a deposit down on an S550 from one dealership just to have them call me to tell me someone else put a deposit after me and it was "first come, first served" so I immediately requested my deposit back and said I'd never take my business there again so that rules out one dealership near me, and the other is not being helpful at all. It's been two weeks since I've heard from them so I called this morning and got transferred to an answering machine and never received a call back after leaving a message.

As far as pumping the gas during start up, I tried that and the car took even longer to start and had more trouble clearing up after it fired.




I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'll embed a video from outside the car on a cold start up. My garage was between 50-55 degrees so it was by no means freezing cold, but the car had been sitting all night. From outside you'll see smoke that is excessive, but only happens on the cold start ups, doesn't smoke any other time other than cold start up.

Now I know the Coyote's have a pretty bad PVC blow-by issue, so I actually ran dual catch cans on my last 5.0L, so that may just be from having such a long cranking time that it's sucking excess oil because I don't have a catch can on it, but I'm not sure.

Another odd thing to mention. I was working on finding an unrelated interior rattle, that turned out to be from the rear B-pillar area, so since there is an airbag along basically the entire side near your head I unhooked the battery. I left the battery off for 4-5 hours, and when I finished I plugged the battery back up and she fired right up. Now I know it should have had it's long start issue with that amount of time sitting so that part has me stumped..

Do we have any Ford Reps on this board? I know Deysha is on AFM which I am also a member, but I don't want to have the same topic open over there just for her to see it. I may PM her on AFM a link to this topic if no reps are active here.

Thoughts anyone?

did you change your air temp sensor yet? Input sensors like IAT, coolant temp, and ambient sensors are vitle to engine performance. Without the pcm knowing the correct temperature values, it won’t be able to add the correct amount of fuel.

 

[KA06GT]

did you change your air temp sensor yet? Input sensors like IAT, coolant temp, and ambient sensors are vitle to engine performance. Without the pcm knowing the correct temperature values, it won’t be able to add the correct amount of fuel.

Unfortunately, not yet. I'm still waiting on Ford to get the part in. That's one of the reasons I was trying to give them a call this morning. I'd love for that to be the issue, so I'm trying to stay optimistic about it, but we'll see. Warranty work seems to take forever!

Another reason I was trying to get in touch with Ford today is because my car is now making that dreaded whine when the climate controls are on. I'm reading Evaporator leak is pretty common and requires the entire dash come out. Whine increases with RPM, doesn't matter if you're running front or rear defrost, A/C, or heat, and A/C does not seem to be blowing cold at all, especially for December in Kentucky..

 

[jasonstang]

It almost sounds like a leaky injector or bad throttle body.
The second video you posted, that smoke after it finally choked to life is concerning. It's either fuel or coolant.
Are you losing coolant?

 

[HISSMAN]

Could a bad VCT solenoid do this?

 

[cechk01]

i have noticed that if you floor the gas while starting the engine will spin but wont start, once I let off the gas the throttle closes and the engine starts. I think the throttle valve moves even when the car it off, you can just barley hear it on a really quiet morning.

 

[KA06GT]

It almost sounds like a leaky injector or bad throttle body.
The second video you posted, that smoke after it finally choked to life is concerning. It's either fuel or coolant.
Are you losing coolant?

I've been checking both oil and coolant levels regularly and both are remaining the same, so I'm thinking just a whole lot of un-burnt fuel or steam. It doesn't smoke at all except directly after the long start up.

Called Ford back today and turns out my sensor had already arrived a week ago but no one had called me. So I've made arrangements to drop it off Tuesday and let them keep it a few days to change the sensor, look at the long start issue first hand, and diagnosis the whine I'm getting from the climate control.

I'm not in high hopes they'll accomplish anything though.

Also, I don't drive like a grandma, but I don't try and race everything I see on the road either, but my average MPG on the dash is showing in the 14MPG range. Definitely lower than my last 5.0 and I was far from babying that car. So I'm wondering if that's connected to the other long start/fuel issue.

 

[jbird60]

i have noticed that if you floor the gas while starting the engine will spin but wont start, once I let off the gas the throttle closes and the engine starts.

This is intended functionality. It serves a few diagnostic purposes, the main one being that it's a way to test for oil pressure without firing the engine (the alternative would require pulling the fuel pump relay/fuse, etc.).

Sponsored