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Roush 5.0 Cat Failure Caught in the Act

engineermike

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I'm posting this just because I got lucky and caught this in a log, so you can see exactly what goes on. Secondly, Roush uses an actual MAP sensor, so the data is more than what you'd get from a MAF car that fails in the same way.

This is a 2020 Roush Nitemare F-150. It's the same supercharger that's on the car, and the same Speed-Density style PCM logic. Other mods to the truck are a 2.8 pulley (+2 psi), Edelbrock 103mm TB, BAP, tstat, flex fuel, and months of custom-tuning. The cats are OEM cats with about 40k miles on them. I had just swapped the pulley and was tuning out a pre-mature shift modulation torque cut when this happened:

1720980465641-cf.png

The measured boost sourced at the MAP sensor had been running around 15 psi flat, but you can see it rise to 19.8 psi before I let off. Basically, the exhaust restriction caused a backup of pressure to build in the intake plenum. Note that a MAF car will NOT show this, because the airflow will not change if PD blown so the SD model result will also not reflect the increase. Furthermore, and this could be why the Roush cars seem to survive cat failures more so than others, with the higher boost comes higher load, which causes lower spark timing and more fuel. The port injector PW peaked at 11.9 ms, while previously in the same log the iPW peaked at 9 ms. Long story short, a cat failure puts the spark and lambda in a safer state in speed density logic.

To confirm my suspicions, I did a cat test log:

1720980881800-v9.png

For the cat test, Ford logic alternates lambda rich/lean and tests response of the rear narrow band O2's. If the rear O2 signal alternates like the front, then the cat is bad. In the log above, you can see the rear O2 voltage alternates in step with the front widebands, indicating both cats aren't functional.

Another interesting thing I saw in the log is regarding fuel trims:

1720981104836-0y.png

At this slightly elevated airflow, the combined fuel trim of bank 1 was -8.6, while for bank 2 was -23.4. At lower airflows the banks were within a couple of percent. My take is that, while both sides were non-functional, the bank 2 cat was restricted and the backpressure was reducing airflow to that bank and the fuel trims had to cut to keep lambda at 1.0. For this reason, I decided to repair bank 2 first:

1720981364946-oh.png

This just dumped out the inlet with no rodding at all. I went on to weld in a stock GT500 cat on bank 2 but ran out of time to repair both. The following is the log from afterwards:

1720981621262-ya.png

Here you can see bank 2 rear narrow band O2 signal does not alternate with lambda, but bank 1 still does. The bank 2 blue line is what it's supposed to look like.

1720981919176-pm.png

The airflow rate is similar to the earlier snip, but now the combined fuel trim is -11.7 for bank 1 and -13.2% for bank 2, a much better balance than before. While it appears as though the backpressure issue is resolved, I will still swap out the bank 1 cat with a GT500 cat as well.

I wanted to share this because I thought it was really interesting to have luckily actually caught the failure as it happened and logged all the diagnostic steps afterwards.
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WildHorse

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With FI, at some point the cats will fail, so IMO, just get rid of them.
Same goes with performance NA applications.
 

junits15

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With FI, at some point the cats will fail, so IMO, just get rid of them.
Same goes with performance NA applications.
you can keep your cats if you are NA, you aren’t gonna blow them unless you do something really dumb.

to the original post:
Interesting stuff, I wonder if a previous event fractured the substrate and this was just it letting go. Do you think this caused by overheating?
 
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engineermike

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to the original post:
Interesting stuff, I wonder if a previous event fractured the substrate and this was just it letting go. Do you think this caused by overheating?
This is a valid point and for sure possible. The truck spent most of its life on pump gas, possibly 91, and +1 psi boost. Gasoline egt’s are high, boosted are higher, retarded timing is higher, and the Roush blower at 13 psi and small intercooler makes things worse. It’s very possible that there were fractures in the substrate before. I’m running e85 at much higher timing, plus I run it .73-.76 lambda so my egt should be fairly low now vs how it spent the first 30k of its life.
 

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Great info @engineermike . Any details on construction differences between gt500 cats and the stock f150 units?
 

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engineermike

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Great info @engineermike . Any details on construction differences between gt500 cats and the stock f150 units?
Ah, another good one. Some time back I compared stock gt to gt500. Stock gt cats appear to be 750 cell. Stock gt500 are 400 cell iirc, and the material thickness of the matrix is about double. The truck cats are smaller od and longer, and the cell count appears to be 900 cpi. I can’t really gauge the tendon thickness at the moment though.

Edit: stock gt are hexagonal matrix, f-150 and gt500 are square.
 

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engineermike

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Well we know for a fact that Chevy, ford, and most of all dodge offer supercharged engines with cats that pass very stringent oem emissions durability standards. It can work.
 

80FoxCoupe

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Ah, another good one. Some time back I compared stock gt to gt500. Stock gt cats appear to be 750 cell. Stock gt500 are 400 cell iirc, and the material thickness of the matrix is about double. The truck cats are smaller od and longer, and the cell count appears to be 900 cpi. I can’t really gauge the tendon thickness at the moment though.

Edit: stock gt are hexagonal matrix, f-150 and gt500 are square.
Sounds like the truck cats are pretty restrictive vs gt, and of course the gt500.
 

WD Pro

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Ahhh gotcha, makes sense.

One NA dude here ( shitty with names, has a green Bullitt) already grenaded his stock CATS.
He doesn't have a snap / crackle / pop tune.
I think you might be referring to @NGOT8R ? But I’m not sure he was on stock cats when he had an issue with them ?

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junits15

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Ahhh gotcha, makes sense.

One NA dude here ( shitty with names, has a green Bullitt) already grenaded his stock CATS.
He doesn't have a snap / crackle / pop tune.
failures will always happen, but you absolutely should not expect stock cats to fail on an NA build because that failure is rare. Saying they need to be removed on an NA setup isn't realistic, there's not enough data to indicate that is something that happens at an appreciable rate.

On a blown setup its a different story, its pretty close to a guarantee that they will eventually let go on a blown setup. I dont know why, but it is what we see over and over on many cars. Even stock roush/whipple tunes cause them to let go at some point.

I have my eyes out for GT500 cats at a good price, eventually I'd like to go to that setup.
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