Required Upgrades for E-85?

[az89gt]

Now that I live where E-85 is readily available, I want to convert and run 15psi (Whipple Gen 5) all the time on E-85 - I'm tired of switching out pulley/belt/tune and hunting down 108 unleaded whenever I go to the track. The car currently has 1000cc injectors and a DW400 fuel pump, so I'm trying to understand what fuel system parts I need to convert. I know I need to get it tuned (which will be nice to get away from Lund) and eliminate the cats, so for now I'm focused on the recommended parts list.

I've read quite a bit and see a wide range of recommendations, ranging from just a voltage booster on the current fuel pump, all the way up to a 2 or 3 pump return style fuel system for $2k-$3k. I won't be going beyond 15psi on E-85, so I don't intend to spend a bunch of extra money to build in extra capacity for future horsepower, but I want it to be 100% safe.

Additionally, I'm looking for feedback on the ProFlex Commander (by Advanced Fuel Dynamics). I would think it's a key upgrade since ethanol rates vary by station, day, etc., and if I ever got into a pinch I could put 93 octane in it and it would still run fine.

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[engineermike]

What pulley are you going to use to reach the 15 psi?

Opinions vary widely on this and I'm quite shocked by what I'm learning with my logging.

 

[NGOT8R]

How much power will you be making with the 15# pulley? If it’s in the neighborhood of about 650 rwhp, I can tell you that I make 639 rwhp/602 rwtq on a 150 shot with E85 and I run a JMS BAP. I like it because it’s not on full time (only comes on at 40% throttle). Note: That was with the factory pump too, but I’ve since added a DW400.

 

[SheepDog]

15 PSI on E should be making 800ish wheel. (edited as I see now you are GEN2)

but I want it to be 100% safe.

100% safe is a fuel system. Even then, nothing is 100% but pushing a single DW400 with a BAP on E85, with 15 PSI is a lot to ask.

 

[az89gt]

Yep, I would expect it to make around 800. When I go to the track I install the 3.375" pulley (Whipple says 15psi) along with a tune for that setup and then 108 octane race gas. While I would never fully rely on the car's built in boost gauge, it's telling me it makes right around 15psi with that pulley.

I've watched some Engine Masters shows and when they dyno boosted applications on gas and then switch to E-85 (no change in pulleys), the E-85 makes a bit less boost but makes considerably more power.

 

[engineermike]

3.375 pulley and e85 is doable on the dw400 with a bap, without all the disadvantages of multiple pump return style systems.

 

[Angrey]

You'll need a fuel system that can deliver enough fuel. You can run your own calculations but as Mike pointed out, it can probably be done with simply boosting your current pump setup (if you find the right tuner willing to take that approach).

You'll also need to check your injectors and make sure you're not out of injector.

You've already mentioned the tune.

I would recommend getting an ethanol sensor kit/setup (like the fuel it) if nothing more than simply checking the quality of the E85 each time to know whether it's tip top or trash.

It varies from time of year, station to station, at the same station depending on fill up, etc. I've filled up and received 82% one week and then went back to the same station 2 weeks later and have it be high 60's.

I recommend using a tuner that's familiar with PCMtech and going down that path. Then you can integrate your ethanol sensor and you can actually run "user input" flex fueling. You fire up the car, it flashes you a reading of the ethanol content and you instantly switch the tune mapping accordingly.

While I don't recommend flogging the car on E10-Pump93, it provides a much needed level of convenience and security if you can fill up with pump gasoline if you find yourself in a jam and just limp the car long enough to find quality E.

If you don't go down that path, I recommend you fill the car with appropriate pump/E85 mixture to achieve E70 before having it either dyno tuned or street logged.

This will give you a full 15 points of flexibility to run high quality E85 or trashy E55. I'd still only flog it if you're E70 or better (not necessarily for knock resistance but proper AFR).

There are a lot more benefits to the PCMtech approach that are discussed elsewhere in other threads.

 

[Angrey]

If you go PCMtech and integrate the ethanol sensor, you don't need to buy the Fuel it module, just the ethanol sensor itself and the sensor housing/fitting.

If you're not going to run a return line as Mike suggested, I'd suggest getting the quality ethanol sensor fitting (like Radium) that doesn't restrict the flow as you're going to have to put it on the feed side.

You can pick up the ethanol sensor (there's a few of them that will work/fit) off amazon for around $60. The Radium fitting and whatever connection fittings aren't that expensive either. If you don't go PCMtech, then you can buy the Fuel-It module and it has a blue tooth connection to an app on your phone so you can check the ethanol content (and fuel temp if that blows your hair back) anytime you want.

No more dealing with test tube interruptions or hassles at the pump or guessing/calculating if you mix fuels. With the sensor, you simply fill up, drive for a bit and let the mixture make it's way forward to the sensor and you'll know exactly what the ethanol content is.

This also allows for some other more advanced fueling approaches. Like I said, if you tune for E70, then what you can do if you find high quality E (like 80+%) is you can mix the E80 with some high quality 93.

One of the bigger concerns with lower quality E85 isn't necessarily the alcohol, it's the garbage gasoline they mix it with. They're generally mixing it with straight trash 87 so while alcohol gets most of it's knock resistance by E50 or so (the rest becomes thermal benefit) that's only a valid assessment if the other 50% isn't straight up garbage water.

Having a sensor will allow many things and it's not that expensive or difficult to install.

 

[az89gt]

In my original post, I asked about the ProFlex Commander (by Advanced Fuel Dynamics) - Does anyone have experience with this unit? It has some great features:

• Patented BlendSense™ technology adjusts in real time with 30 millisecond refresh rate
• True flex fuel - switch from gas to ethanol and back anytime
• No tuning required - Compatible with stock or performance gas tunes; instantly adapts to new tunes
• Compatible with power adders and bolt-ons
• ProFlex Connect app provides accurate, real-time ethanol content on your iPhone or Android device via BT Wireless communication

 

[robvas]

In my original post, I asked about the ProFlex Commander (by Advanced Fuel Dynamics) - Does anyone have experience with this unit? It has some great features:

• Patented BlendSense™ technology adjusts in real time with 30 millisecond refresh rate
• True flex fuel - switch from gas to ethanol and back anytime
• No tuning required - Compatible with stock or performance gas tunes; instantly adapts to new tunes
• Compatible with power adders and bolt-ons
• ProFlex Connect app provides accurate, real-time ethanol content on your iPhone or Android device via BT Wireless communication

I have no personal experience with it, but I'm not a huge fan of piggy-back style systems, and it's not going to add any timing (aside from what your existing tune has in it) so you won't really see power gains. There are a couple threads about it here.

For the what the Proflex costs, just buy an e85 tune from your favorite tuner.

It sounds like the GT350 guys see gains from it but that's because their factory tune will see the reduced knock and bump the timing up a bit.

 

[HKusp]

I'm putting this here for future reference.

https://www.radiumauto.com/Split-Flow-Flex-Fuel-Sensor-Adapter-P2194.aspx

 

[J17GT]

I put in the sensor adapter from Motion Raceworks which is another good option. I just need to get the fuel-it setup.
https://motionraceworks.com/product...-sensor-mount-for-feed-or-return-6an-8an-10an

 

[engineermike]

The proflex commander just adds injector duty cycle proportionately to maintain stoichiometry. It can not modify spark timing as a function of ethanol, nor can it handle the cold-start differences needed. No way I would do that when the OEM computer much more capable of handling flex.

 

[Angrey]

I put in the sensor adapter from Motion Raceworks which is another good option. I just need to get the fuel-it setup.
https://motionraceworks.com/product...-sensor-mount-for-feed-or-return-6an-8an-10an

Just remember the further away from the pumps you place the sensor, the longer you'll have to wait for the new mixture to arrive across the sensor and arrive at steady state. It's not a long time but it's not instantaneous.

I have mine on my return line so it takes a couple minutes of idling or less if just normal driving before I turn on the app and check it. (or I used to, my fuel it module is gone now because the signal is integrated into my ECU now. It flashes me a value on one of my gauges now, which is useless because again, it only does it momentarily just after startup so the reading is not accurate. I don't really care because my PCM is now flex fuel tuned, so whatever it is the tune adjusts).

In fact, I need to sell my fuel it module. I need to check the box of discarded stuff from my motec install. I'm betting it's in there.

 

[HKusp]

Just remember the further away from the pumps you place the sensor, the longer you'll have to wait for the new mixture to arrive across the sensor and arrive at steady state. It's not a long time but it's not instantaneous.

I have mine on my return line so it takes a couple minutes of idling or less if just normal driving before I turn on the app and check it. (or I used to, my fuel it module is gone now because the signal is integrated into my ECU now. It flashes me a value on one of my gauges now, which is useless because again, it only does it momentarily just after startup so the reading is not accurate. I don't really care because my PCM is now flex fuel tuned, so whatever it is the tune adjusts).

In fact, I need to sell my fuel it module. I need to check the box of discarded stuff from my motec install. I'm betting it's in there.

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