PTWA Cylinder Liner Honing/Cleanup

[lyeguy]

Hello,

I had a question for all those that have used a Gen 3 or Voodoo block for a build. I was wondering what people have done to hone/clean up the PWTA Cylinders if anything? I have just acquired a Voodoo block and the cylinders are in good condition but I was wondering what others have done before dropping the pistons in

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[K4fxd]

You might get lucky but they cannot be honed.

When I say you might get lucky is hit them with a ball hone for a few seconds and you may not eat through the coating and your rings might seal.

To do it right you need sleeves.

 

[lyeguy]

You might get lucky but they cannot be honed.

When I say you might get lucky is hit them with a ball hone for a few seconds and you may not eat through the coating and your rings might seal.

To do it right you need sleeves.

so my block has a really nice cross hatch in it. As long as there is a decent cross hatch in it in theory I should be ok?

 

[lyeguy]

You might get lucky but they cannot be honed.

When I say you might get lucky is hit them with a ball hone for a few seconds and you may not eat through the coating and your rings might seal.

To do it right you need sleeves.

my main concern is really that there seems to be a little oxidation in the bore. Not really sure what it is or whether or not it will effect ring seal or not. I know in the motorcycle world, people have cleaned up there Nikisil plates cylinders for years with a fine scotch bright pad and WD40, I would think a similar process could be used with the PTWA

 

[K4fxd]

Your rings won't seal. All the high spots are worn off.

Then again you might get lucky.

I worked with HD's and Nikasil cylinders. Basically the same as Ford's PWTA.
If the engine was torn down and new rings installed they wouldn't seal. Honing didn't work either. Engine life was reduced to 10K miles or less. Cylinders would wear out.

 

[K4fxd]

people have cleaned up there Nikisil plates cylinders for years with a fine scotch bright pad and WD40, I would think a similar process could be used with the PTWA

Give it a shot.

 

[GregO]

@lyeguy some good information here; https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiChYbx6pH5AhVzI30KHWr-A0EQFnoECDwQAQ&url=https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1806565&usg=AOvVaw37al5VelyAu64uWkbit9DO
PTWA final Ra finish is shocking low !
IMO you're not far off with the Scotch and WD40 clean up, I'd use Kerosene in place of WD40.

Break In oil only; https://drivenracingoil.com/i-30497749-br-30-5w-30-conventional-break-in-oil.html
And this; https://www.mullenixracingengines.com/how-to-break-in-your-engine

 

[lyeguy]

@lyeguy some good information here; https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiChYbx6pH5AhVzI30KHWr-A0EQFnoECDwQAQ&url=https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1806565&usg=AOvVaw37al5VelyAu64uWkbit9DO
PTWA final Ra finish is shocking low !
IMO you're not far off with the Scotch and WD40 clean up, I'd use Kerosene in place of WD40.

Break In oil only; https://drivenracingoil.com/i-30497749-br-30-5w-30-conventional-break-in-oil.html
And this; https://www.mullenixracingengines.com/how-to-break-in-your-engine

Thank you for sharing!! Some awesome information in there!! I’ve done a lot of reading on PWTA liners and from what I understand, from the factory the cylinders are PWTA coated and sprayed and they are then honed in order to introduce a cross hatch meaning in theory, you should be able to replicate that. PWTA coatings are super hard, harder than iron from what I understand and unless you were using something very abrasive like a traditional stone hone or a ball hone, I would think that would be perfectly acceptable. As far as Kerosene, what’s the reason for using that over WD40?

 

[GregO]

from what I understand and unless you were using something very abrasive like a traditional stone hone or a ball hone, I would think that would be perfectly acceptable. As far as Kerosene, what’s the reason for using that over WD40?

Coated aluminum cylinders typically are Diamond Plateau Honed to final bore size and required Ra surface finish to match rings used.
Any coated aluminum cylinder is only "Egg Shell" hard. Most OEM coatings are .005+ thick.
If not using Scotch-Brite as you suggested the only other at home glaze breaker is a Honing Brush.
No Stones or ball hones, those will make a mess of things. There's enough information online to get you headed down the right path to using the correct brush hone (brush abrasive material, grit & speed). Always check with the ring manufacture as to their guidelines for cylinder prep. MAHLE has drop-in pistons, check their drop-in SOP.

As far as Kerosene vs. WD-40, well it's the volume used. You've got 8 sizable holes. The brush hone and cylinder need liberal amounts of fluid to flush away contaminates. The Brush hone manufacture you choose will have their own guidelines and procedures.
Back in the day we used Diesel or Fuel Oil to flush and lube the drill powered hone on tractor overhauls with a large catch pan underneath.
A solution of Kerosene and motor oil will also work. WD-40 @ $25.00 a gallon, no thanks. You'll blow through gallons on 8 holes. Totally different story if we were talking single cylinder small engines.

 

[Jackson1320]

Coated aluminum cylinders typically are Diamond Plateau Honed to final bore size and required Ra surface finish to match rings used.
Any coated aluminum cylinder is only "Egg Shell" hard. Most OEM coatings are .005+ thick.
If not using Scotch-Brite as you suggested the only other at home glaze breaker is a Honing Brush.
No Stones or ball hones, those will make a mess of things. There's enough information online to get you headed down the right path to using the correct brush hone (brush abrasive material, grit & speed). Always check with the ring manufacture as to their guidelines for cylinder prep. MAHLE has drop-in pistons, check their drop-in SOP.

As far as Kerosene vs. WD-40, well it's the volume used. You've got 8 sizable holes. The brush hone and cylinder need liberal amounts of fluid to flush away contaminates. The Brush hone manufacture you choose will have their own guidelines and procedures.
Back in the day we used Diesel or Fuel Oil to flush and lube the drill powered hone on tractor overhauls with a large catch pan underneath.
A solution of Kerosene and motor oil will also work. WD-40 @ $25.00 a gallon, no thanks. You'll blow through gallons on 8 holes. Totally different story if we were talking single cylinder small engines.

the ptwa cylinders are extremely hard

 

[engineermike]

I read up on PTWA and still have yet to determine what’s the actual material. PTWA is just the application process. My assumption was that it’s hard like nikasil or chrome but it could actually just be iron. Anyone have anything definitive on this?

 

[Jackson1320]

I read up on PTWA and still have yet to determine what’s the actual material. PTWA is just the application process. My assumption was that it’s hard like nikasil or chrome but it could actually just be iron. Anyone have anything definitive on this?

check this out
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1056.2365&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[GregO]

@engineermike I'm guessing, Vanadium Nitride-Copper.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/06/f34/ft050_gangopadhyay_2017_o.pdf

 

[GregO]

the ptwa cylinders are extremely hard

The coating is very hard, the substrate is still aluminum.
Like Hardcoat Anodizing, the term Eggshell hard isn't a new term in the industry.

 

[GregO]

Is it settled, Ford PTWA deposited spray is a VN-Cu matrix ?

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