FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

[80FoxCoupe]

It has forged pistons....vs cast...it also has ( similar to 4th gen aluminum LS ) bulkhead supports for those plasma bores and while they are 5.2L id be curious to know since the block is rated for 12psi stock if they are slightly thicker. However supporting them in key places (kind of like people would do on the Gen 2 in the coolant jacket which to a lesser degree was introduced into the design of the gen 3 )...

Also it would be the hand built nature of them vs being at the mercy of batches of bores being a bit large coupled with piston batches being a big narrower ), this is probably regardless of break in the most significant variable in IF and when your Gen 3 starts ticking...how by pure luck tight was your batch of piston skirt thickness opposed to blocks mass produced bore thickness....
If I am being fair the Predator has not only difference in block support and forged piston but more precise repeatable hand built assembly.....

Just going off my experiences its a settled issue for me, it's funny even to this date AL, simply put a forged piston in his plasma bore block replacement ( his stock was a fairly robust ticker till it broke several secondary ring lands, like all mine did ) to this date he doesn't have the tick after countless passes and dyno pulls...still on 93 with ALL the same heads,GDI, and timing components in place...he simply took his blown stock short block out....replaced it with a stock gen 3 plasma block ( $1000 ready to assemble not a bad price honestly with final honing ready to assemble and no machine work needed ) which has 2618 forged pistons same bore.....no tick....

I been trying to research the average mass produced gen 3 rod side clearance too, as with composite pans that's amplifying anything down there...and my first engine I swear it would be louder half way up a pair of car ramps and I don't mean acoustically transmitting better I mean with directional mics......


Ford could buy a bulk 4032 piston shove it in there tight with like a perfect skirt break in coating and be golden, it's overall imho a good engine...stellar even.....they revised the balancer and need a slight revision on the intake phasers ( some of that is low oil pressure on 5w20 with the oil pressure bypass open at idle)...

If I were to buy one today new I'd factor in building a spare short block, and or buy the longest extended warranty I could and not modify it...also some dexos 2 LSPI resistant oil......

I hope I live long enough to see some of these in the 150k mile range....this will sound like bullshit but I swear I've pulled MANY 6.0L LS down at 180-230k and it still have factory hone marks in the cylinders...( LS2/3 ect LQ4s not the newer LTs).....

I think Ford tried to and for the most part made a masterpiece it's how they pretend all ticks are created equal thats bothersome...ive seen what I call 20fters ( my first engine) to dude your being anal that could be exhaust pulses but they pile all noise complaints under 7718 instead of diagnosing them individually....
Having owned the SAME car with both a LOUD one and a super quite one, I can tell how the ownership experience is vastly different and shouldn't be lumped together...thats my rub....I love how they tried to push envelopes its in my nature......

My engine builder stated when sleeving my 2020 predator block, that the cylinder wall thickness was noted to be thicker than 18up gt. They may have recorded that data, but i did not ask about it.

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[sk47]

Hello; Excellent post. You laid out the needed details in a concise form. I had to read thru a few times to get my old brain cells in gear. Thanks

he Gen 3 plasma bore engine is wearing it when it's WARM...hence the Ceratec friction modifier ( and I found MsO2 moly to be helpful as well)..

Hello; So if I follow this those of us who wind up with a block of the plasma arc lined cylinder walls ought to be using a friction modifier in the oil.

That a set of forged pistons of a proper alloy can be helpful when it comes time to replace the short block.

That the Gen III owners ought to have a warranty of some sort if they do not have the skill/option to rebuild the engine when the very thin plasma lining gets scratched. In some ways I hope I have overstated this last bit. I do not so much need an engine to go over 60,000 miles at my age and circumstance. It took me sixteen years to put 60,000 miles on my current pickup and nearly 20 years to put 130,000 miles on my current car. Even so the notion of the potential issues is unsettling. I had hoped to learn that Ford has made adjustments to "fix" the issues. Thanks again for taking the time to write all this out.

You can see how the math of the piston running out of optimum spec cold a few minutes each morning on Traditional engine designs is preferable to it running out of spec the entire time it's hot

Hello; yes I do see this. The Silverado of my neighbor had the slap when cold but was much quieter when warmed up. It also had lots of miles on it, well over 100K.

he 4.8L shorter stroke, don't mistake the fact your engines will pull to 7500 factory as having the correct bottom end geometry to do so, its horrible geometry for RPM from an engine builders perspective, it's entirely the DOHC and head setup that flows there but that bottom end isn't happy , the piston comes way out the bottom with terrible angularity compared to other high rpm purpose built engines....

Hello; Not a problem as I have not approached such high RPM's in the truck so far. Good to know the limitations. Thanks again.

 

[sk47]

@BlueCollarDaily what is different about the Predator, in your belief, that makes it not tick as compared to the gen3 coyote?

being at the mercy of batches of bores being a bit large coupled with piston batches being a big narrower ), this is probably regardless of break in the most significant variable in IF and when your Gen 3 starts ticking...how by pure luck tight was your batch of piston skirt thickness opposed to blocks mass produced bore thickness....

Hello; So it is a luck of the draw sort of thing. If you happen to get a set of pistons with specs that match well with the specs of block then you are sort of golden. If you happen to wind up with less well matched pistons and block then you are not so very shiny.
Before others say it, let me jump to a truism. All mass produced and complicated things are subject to the range of tolerances of their component parts. This thing with the plasma lined cylinder bores seems to be more than ordinary random pairing of parts within specs.

 

[engineermike]

Interesting that the Predator and gen3 coyote have the same OEM bore clearance spec.

 

[Dfeeds]

I have a lot of experience with these both building from scratch and boosting salvage cores with a few mods ( ring end gap, ls9 gaskets and China head studs)...
What you are describing is precisely how it should work...its has a little piston slap cold that goes away as it warms up. That is because the piston expands in the bore and the bore as it heats doesn't outpace the thermal expansion of the stock cast piston alloy. This is because say on a 5.3L LH6 you may have a sleeve that's 0.300 thick ( vs 0.006 plasma bore) and the gen 4 has bulkheads for even those thick cylinder liners ( we literally bore the 5.3L out to 5.7L and STILL have more wall thickness left than a lot of 6.2L stock ( aka holds boost and unshrouds valves).
That behavior is exactly how you expect engines to act, you are correct in assuming the shorter stroke and conversely the improved rod to stroke length ratio/thrust angle of 4.8L can indeed lessen this effect...but it quitens as it warms and the piston expands into into bore and the bore isn't growing much....

The plasma bore piston reacts the same the problem IS the plasma bore itself paces or outgrows the thermal expansion of the stock piston because it's so thin....it grows to .005 which is nuts...when the piston might only grow .002 ( stick hyper but 0.004-7 depending on alloy 4032 or 2618 and skirt design). So instead of that cold start up slap wearing the grafal from the piston slowly at cold start for let's say 5 minutes....the Gen 3 plasma bore engine is wearing it when it's WARM...hence the Ceratec friction modifier ( and I found MsO2 moly to be helpful as well)...now the dealers are starting to see a lot trucks come in with cylinder damage bone stock. It took longer because they aren't turned the same rpm and smashed stop sign to stop sign but are driven more regularly....

Traditionally piston manufacturers have worked on getting that cold piston to wall as tight as possible for more stable, longer wearing, and efficient ring sealing BUT that was in traditional bores not growing at the same or greater rate...its why you won't see a built gen 3 coyote with a sleeved block ( usually darton ductile iron liners WAY thicker than the plasma bore ) with a tick warm.....the trade off has historically been the same cold start up piston slap you mentioned for a few minutes NOT the entire time its running....the market tried to get them to run tighter and tighter to fully eliminate this and its why, until a certain power level 4032 forged alloy is preferred on street engines because it can be run at tighter clearances.....

You can see how the math of the piston running out of optimum spec cold a few minutes each morning on Traditional engine designs is preferable to it running out of spec the entire time it's hot ( plus no one hears that after they leave their driveway lol, you don't have old men flagging you trying to tell you that your car is knocking).
As MPR said for the plasma bore with cast piston to run at correct skirt to wall hot, it would need NEGATIVE clearance to 0.0005 ( 1/2 thousandth clearance cold) which is why ford tightened up the clearance, offset the piston pin and tried to rely on that thick grafal coating...ONE variable not accounted for though the plasma bore is hair thin, can't be reused with even the finest of scratches ( vs Traditional bores having several rebuilds worth of material in them), expanding insanely ( though you can get pistons to match from Mahle notice they are .001 oversized from stock too and in 2618 alloy), they are rock hard and that may play a role in the engine living out to 60,001 miles.....

Also as mentioned with the 4.8L shorter stroke, don't mistake the fact your engines will pull to 7500 factory as having the correct bottom end geometry to do so, its horrible geometry for RPM from an engine builders perspective, it's entirely the DOHC and head setup that flows there but that bottom end isn't happy , the piston comes way out the bottom with terrible angularity compared to other high rpm purpose built engines....

Its crystal clear what the problem is and has been and why the Predator doesn't tick ( same bore but forged pistons)....why sleeved built engines don't tick either.....

Also the 10 speed which has let me down twice at 700whp is really start to become an issue on the trucks...I went over mine with the tran tech and I like the overall design it needs a bit more room for clutch material and more surface area for converter grip ( looks like the Mach I is getting that) but above all it's needs serviceable clutch group solenoids so that an entire $1000 isn't spent for an entire valvebody, fluid, filter, and reprogramming to your PCM....user serviceable would help a lot....

Why is it that when I mentioned this as my theory, in the past, I get jumped on by a couple of tenured members about how that can't be true but when you do no one peeps a word? I smell some bias.

 

[WildHorse]

Gen 3 blocks cannot be bored, they have to be sleeved. As for pistons, yeah their cast (gen 1 & 2 anyways), but they're hypereutectic casting, which behave very well whether cold or hot, forged pistons make all kinds of noises when cold. Hypereutectic aluminum has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion, which allows engine designers to specify much tighter tolerances. I can tell a forged piston vs cast just by listening to the cold start. So if Ford is using the same piston to wall clearances on the gen 3 block vs predator, then either the pred are not forged, or the gen 3 block is forged pistons.

 

[sk47]

Alot of good stuff here, and would be completely relevant to the Coyote IF the tick that people commonly hear is piston slap. But it has been determined that the tick is not piston slap. PIston slap is consistent with engine RPM, while the tick isn't.

Hello; I started following this thread and other information sources back in the late summer. I had made a good deal on a leftover 2019 F-150 pickup but walked away when finding there is some questions about the thin plasma arc cylinder linings. At that time late last summer good information was hard to come by.
First thing is my concern is not so much about particular noises, but more about the durability of the Gen III engines over time. In my reading I found there are discussions of engine noises that may have very different sources. I do figure the tick some report could be different than piston slap. I am not in a position to know if they are from the same or different sources. While I do not like loud piston slap, I do know engines can endure for lots of miles with it. Other engine ticks may be part of normal operations for all I know personally.

However the nature of the super thin plasma cylinder lining by the very nature of being so thin seems to be the bigger durability question in my mind. Unless a noise is quite loud I can live with it as long as the noise does not relate to a serious engine reliability problem.
I may be too old school in the sense of having become use to having engines that do not have bad slap or other loud noises. I can understand how the high pressure direct injection impulse can make a distinct noise and be normal.

If I bought a vehicle that later had noise issues I would not be pleased. I would likely live with it for as long as the engine was sound. Since I am on the side of things where I am still looking to buy and have not yet bought, I am being selfish and want to avoid buying a vehicle with known and not yet corrected issues.

If I were looking to buy a truck then the issues with the ten speed auto would be on my mind. I plan to get a manual Mustang. It is a mute point right now as my latest offer on a Mustang GT was rejected as of yesterday.

 

[80FoxCoupe]

Gen 3 blocks cannot be bored, they have to be sleeved. As for pistons, yeah their cast (gen 1 & 2 anyways), but they're hypereutectic casting, which behave very well whether cold or hot, forged pistons make all kinds of noises when cold. Hypereutectic aluminum has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion, which allows engine designers to specify much tighter tolerances. I can tell a forged piston vs cast just by listening to the cold start. So if Ford is using the same piston to wall clearances on the gen 3 block vs predator, then either the pred are not forged, or the gen 3 block is forged pistons.

It is being said that the thermal expansion of the 18up 5.0 block/cylinder is out pacing that of the piston. The expansion on the predator block could be less than 18up due to cylinder wall thickness and or more deck support. In addition, predator using forged pistons with a higher expansion rate vs hyper, could insinuate piston rock occurs most when cold and subsides as temps rise. Just the opposite for 18up 5.0.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Im just going to continue not beating on mine until cyl head temps reach normal.

 

[sk47]

Ford Solicitation for Extended Warranty | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Hello; There is a thread on this site about extended warranties directly from For itself. I have never considered an aftermarket warranty but one from Ford might make sense if the cost is fair.

 

[GT Pony]

Ford Solicitation for Extended Warranty | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Hello; There is a thread on this site about extended warranties directly from For itself. I have never considered an aftermarket warranty but one from Ford might make sense if the cost is fair.

An extended warranty directly through Ford is the best way to go IMO if you think the price is fair. With the extended Ford warranty, you can go to any Ford dealer for the fix because once you buy the extended Ford warranty, any Ford dealership in the country will have a record in their system that you have the extended warranty.

 

[GT Pony]

Ford Solicitation for Extended Warranty | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Hello; There is a thread on this site about extended warranties directly from For itself. I have never considered an aftermarket warranty but one from Ford might make sense if the cost is fair.

Shop here for the Ford ESP warranty if you're thinking about one ... it will be cheaper than what most dealerships will give you unless you show them you can buy it here. You can buy it on-line and it's totally legitimate. I bought one from Flood Ford, and called my local dealership afterwards to verify it showed in their system, and it did.

https://www.floodfordesp.com/

 

[sk47]

'19 GT350 engine replacement | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Hello; I looked at the thread linked above this morning. Seems there are hard feelings about the topic of engine failures and that these feelings go back in time. I do not qualify enough to have an opinion, not been on this forum long and do not own one of the engines.
My interest was started a few months ago when I stumbled onto information just before being about to buy a 2019 Ford F-150 with a V-8. Since that time I have been trying to find out more about what appears to be a basic flaw in the way some Ford engines are put together. I have put off buying Ford vehicles with the GEN III V-8's. Normally I would just move on to some other make, but the two vehicles at the top of my list are the Mustang GT and the F-150 with a V-8.

I started searching the internet and also went to three Ford dealerships. Ford people will not tell me anything which in no surprise, but also is no help. This site is the better of the ones I found with this thread having what seems to be the better information.
Let me be more clear. I am not so much interested in the various noises which have been discussed other than if they signal a more serious problem. Near as I can tell there are at least two very serious issues. One with total engine failures and the other with the ten speed transmission.

The engine failure is the more important as I will be getting a mustang GT with the manual. The history seems to be Ford started lining the cylinder walls of the V-8 engines in the very high performance cars back around 2010 maybe. That being the use of a plasma iron to line the cylinder wall with a very thin layer or sleeve. Then sometime around 2018 Ford started using that type of plasma sleeve in all the GEN III in the Mustangs and the F-150.
There are at least three things in question about these linings. One being the lining is very hard and the piston rings can take a long time to seat which results in excess oil consumption. That was the first thing to catch my attention about the F-150's. That in itself was not so good but was far from terrible, as the rings should eventually seat and oil consumption ease off.

The second and third are closely related and have to do with the thinness of the plasma lining. Near as I can find out it is the lining which leads to the bigger problems. One is some number of of total engine failures. What percentage of the engines fail is a main question for me. Is it such a common thing that many or most of these plasma lined engines are prone to fail? Is it only a very small percentage which fail?

In the thread I linked above in this post it is suggested that running an engine too hard when cold is the main cause of the failures. This is something I can avoid. I already avoid hard running until an engine is warmed up. Can it be as simple at this?

I also gather the wise thing to do is add a friction modifier to the oil. May even be Ford does this when the cars are shipped new. That engines are reported to start having some noise after the first oil change is perhaps a clue.

The third thing is that the engines cannot be rebuilt due to the thin cylinder lining and that the thin lining is very unforgiving if damaged. I get the thin lining saves weight and makes the engines more cutting edge which I like. If the lining is hard and done correctly the engine should last a long time.
One thing cane to mind lately. That is for the 2018 and up GEN III V-8 some sort of data on those with over 60,000 miles. I am sure Ford has good data on the engine failures but they are not sharing.

So last weekend I made an offer again on a Mustang GT. A leftover 2020. They turned me down again. But if they do ever accept my plan is to be easy during warm up. Use some sort of friction modifier approved by Ford and perhaps buy an extended warranty.

Not sure why there are feuds among the members here about the blown engines. Just sure that it is a touchy subject.

 

[GT Pony]

'19 GT350 engine replacement | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Hello; I looked at the thread linked above this morning. Seems there are hard feelings about the topic of engine failures and that these feelings go back in time. I do not qualify enough to have an opinion, not been on this forum long and do not own one of the engines.
My interest was started a few months ago when I stumbled onto information just before being about to buy a 2019 Ford F-150 with a V-8. Since that time I have been trying to find out more about what appears to be a basic flaw in the way some Ford engines are put together. I have put off buying Ford vehicles with the GEN III V-8's. Normally I would just move on to some other make, but the two vehicles at the top of my list are the Mustang GT and the F-150 with a V-8.

The subject engine in that link is the Voodoo in the GT350, not a Coyote ... they are two different animals so to speak.

 

[sk47]

As stupid as this may sound, Im convinced part of the issue with the 17's(if not the entire issue) was the oil filter itself. Notice which 17 motors had issues(after they switched away from the canister style filter in the second half of the production cycle. The FL2062 filters were not able to hold up to the oil pressure and would get sucked in causing an oil flow restriction. Thats most likely the reason they went to an aluminum core oil filter with FL 2087.... my oil pressure went from 70-90 on cold starts to 125 when i switched to the newer filter

Hello; Just read the above post in a different thread. This is the first I can recall of an oil filter spec change by Ford. Is this something worth consideration? Note I do get this other thread is mainly about the engines in the high performance cars.

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