FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

[Cobra Jet]

So with all of the 2018 (and now some 2019) “tick” threads, some documented engine failures and pending Service Center Analysis for those owners who have their vehicles being serviced, the following (2) articles discuss the new 2018/2019 5.0 Coyote cylinder liner process. This process was used on the GT350 5.2 and is now the norm for the 5.0 2018/19 Coyote.

In no way is this thread meant to imply or correlate ANY “tick issues” (or other 2018/19 engine concerns) with the PTWA liner process; it is being posted for those who might not have seen these articles, to further S550 Owners knowledge of the liner type and manufacturing process and hopefully can educate newbie 2018/2019 5.0 S550 owners as to what’s inside their 5.0 Coyote.

Article 1 (scroll down to the “Big Changes” discussion):
https://www.fordnxt.com/news/a-peek-inside-the-2018-mustangs-gen-3-coyote-engine/

Article 2 (in depth details and video):
https://www.fordnxt.com/news/video-see-fords-cylinder-bore-prep-in-action-on-gt350-engine-block/

Article 3:
https://www.supersonicspray.com/uploads/documents/2014.08.01 ITSSe Villafuerte Vol 9 (3) 37-38.pdf

Article 4 (2018 paper regarding wear findings):
https://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1108/ILT-07-2017-0218

Article 5 (Great J&E article describing how they had to redesign their pistons for the 2018 Coyote):
http://blog.jepistons.com/introducing-jes-2018-ford-coyote-5.0l-pistons

Article 6 (discusses changes to oil viscosities and fuel economy):
https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/fli-a...-for-improved-fuel-economy-and-co2-reduction/

Want real deep tech?
Article 7 (U.S. Army Tank Automotive Research Development and Engineering Center, Warren, Michigan 48397-5000
Piston Ring Cylinder Liner Tribological Review):
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1056698.pdf

Article 8 (yep, 10yrs ago Ford was working it back in 2008):
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/ford-developing.html#more

Article 9 (How and why to sleeve a Coyote block):
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/how-and-why-to-sleeve-a-coyote-block/ar-BBMqA9n

Ford Patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8877285


Enjoy!

Sponsored

 

[VooDooDaddy]

So with all of the 2018 (and now some 2019) “tick” threads, some documented engine failures...

...In no way is this thread meant to imply or correlate ANY “tick issues” (or other 2018/19 engine concerns) with the PTWA liner process...

Hello McFly....

You implied a correlation with your opening sentence.

 

[Mountain376]

The plasma-transfer cylinder walls were used in the 2011-12 Condor and 2013-14 Trinity GT500 engine as well.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/news/m5lp-1203-2013-ford-shelby-gt500-trinity-5-8l-v8/

It seems the manufacturing and processing for the GT500 engines was in Germany and assembled in the US.

The Voodoo and Coyote are assembled in North America (US and Canada, respectively). [EDIT] Not sure on the manufacturing and processing of the blocks, but I believe is in Canada.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1601-shelby-block-tech-fords-plasma-transfer-wire-arc/

Also, the Voodoo is deck-plate honed and the Gen3 Coyote is not.

So, you are posting just to post and educate? Your post sure seems to insinuate an issue with something...

 

[GT Pony]

Article 5 (Great J&E article describing how they had to redesign their pistons for the 2018 Coyote):
http://blog.jepistons.com/introducing-jes-2018-ford-coyote-5.0l-pistons

The J&E piston article was interesting. They make it sound like the J&E "Perfect Skirt" coating should make the piston to cylinder clearance very tight, and prevent "false knock" - probably meaning preventing "piston slap". The coating is supposed to "wear in" and conform to the cylinder, but I'm wondering if the Plasma Transfer Wire Arc coating in the cylinders is totally compatible with these new pistons. Could be why some guys have quiet engines for 500~1000 miles, then they start making noises. And the "streaks" found in cylinder walls could be the skirt coating being worn off more than it should be, then once the skirt coating gets worn down to aluminum then metal to metal contact starts happening.

 

[ihc95]

So, you are posting just to post and educate? Your post sure seems to insinuate an issue with something...

Huh? OP drives an Ecoboost...

 

[Blue Horse]

Huh? OP drives an Ecoboost...

Doesn't make any difference what the OP drives,the article that he posted has some very interesting information,the GEN 3 Coyote Engine is plagued with many problems,( dropped valves,piston slap,oil consumption,broken piston rings,scoring of the cylinder walls,ticking and knocking sounds,engine destruction in very few miles).Yes I would say Ford has a problem,and there is something really wrong with the design and build of the Gen 3 Coyote engine.Nice article OP great job,some folks just don't want to admit to the fact the Gen 3 has MAJOR flaws.

 

[Mazman]

Scoring of cylinder wall nr 3 check, plus interesting sounds from the block

New (complete)engine is being installed, dated June 2018. Interesting note is why there were engines on stock in Germany.... Conspiracy theories may start here .....

 

[Excel]

Doesn't make any difference what the OP drives,the article that he posted has some very interesting information,the GEN 3 Coyote Engine is plagued with many problems,( dropped valves,piston slap,oil consumption,broken piston rings,scoring of the cylinder walls,ticking and knocking sounds,engine destruction in very few miles).Yes I would say Ford has a problem,and there is something really wrong with the design and build of the Gen 3 Coyote engine.Nice article OP great job,some folks just don't want to admit to the fact the Gen 3 has MAJOR flaws.

This is all in an effort to save money,if they just built these motors
like a perf motor should we would be golden...Early Cobra motors for instance
kicked ass,they came from Ford with good parts and even forged pistons,THIS is
what all mustang GTs and GT350 should be like.

 

[66Bronc1]

Interesting articles. It looks like it was a weight savings over the cast iron liners. The cylinders are still honed after the process and I assume must be to tight tolerances for optimal piston to cylinder wall clearance. How well this technology will hold up in the real world as far as durability and wear, who knows. I still wonder what causes the "piston slap" and if it gets more prominent after more miles you have to wonder is it wear. Mine has the slap only when the engine is cold, then it goes away. And for the catastrophic engine failures I really wonder the real root cause- was it out of tolerance conditions between the pistons and cylinder walls, something from the plasma process, honing process, bad pistons, or something else entirely? I work in the medical manufacturing industry and there are failures of implants. it does not happen often but it does happen. Each issue has to be investigated to find out the root cause- and I knew what they were. So I really wonder what the root causes are for the engine failures. And if you have to rebuild these engines- can they be rebuilt and at that point put in cast iron liners?

 

[ihc95]

I'm losing brain cells reading some of these replies. "Ford dropped the ball" yet there are thousands and thousands of happy 2018+ customers including people putting down 420+ whp and running 11s bone stock. I also see too many people acting like they know more than Ford powertrain engineers LOL. It sucks some people have issues (and some THINK they have issues but don't) but I wouldn't consider it to be Ford "dropping the ball" by any means.

Chevy actually dropped the ball with the new Camaro because sales of that car have been garbage.

 

[sdiver68]

My engine is warrantied out to 200,000 miles. From what I've read, there was a bad bunch of engines due to production errors. Guess what Ive seen major issues with every brand over the years. Anyway, if my engine falls in the <5% that have issues then Ford will fix it.

The alternative is Camaro (no thanks, issues of their own) or M4 for $25-$30k more.

For those who want to eat into the engineering safety margin with power adders, that's on you. Pay to play.

 

[Cobra Jet]

First - glad the articles with tech are beneficial to some folks.

Second - I’ve owned (20) Mustangs, all V8’s including 5.0s of the pushrod and DOHC variety with the exception of only 4 being 2.3 Turbo equipped (2 SVOs and now 2 EB Prem w/PP). Whether I own a “Ecoboost” or a Ferrari, does not have any implication on what I have posted as factual articles and information in this thread.

Third - My opening statement is being taken out of context - I merely said that because of all the “tick” threads, I’m posting the articles to give folks further knowledge of how the new gen Coyote 5.0 is not only manufactured but trying show that the bore lining isn’t just some type of “spray” like paint... and that the block itself can withstand quite a bit of HP. If anyone has read the NUMEROUS “tick” threads regarding the 2018, you would know there’s quite a bit of speculation and “whisper down the line” going on.

Here’s more facts I will post that some may want to consider in their search for answers for the 2018 5.0 Coyote - even though currently there is no official findings from Ford’s Engineering Team.

1) The S550 Shelby owners also experience the “tick”, so much so that Ford did in fact release an SSM (I’m attaching official SSM 46173). As one can see and read, the “tick” for the 5.2 is considered to be normal - in MOST scenarios. Yes, we do know of some S550 failures - but most likely in the minority compared to overall production figures and does not mean every single 5.2 will experience ANY failure at all due to a “tick”.

2) Other Ford products have experienced a “tick” as well. In some of these instances, based on the Ford product - the tick has been linked to cracked piston skirts and in others, cracked piston heads. I’m attaching a single Ford SSM, SSM 47394 another official Ford doc. I’m providing this SSM to demonstrate that Ford is aware that an internal engine tick could be related to and has been found to be a cracked piston skirt. Now before I get jumped on again, YES, this SSM does not apply to a 5.0 Coyote, HOWEVER it’s merely to show that an internal “tick” COULD BE related to a failed piston head as well. This may explain the Coyote 5.0 cylinder wall scoring, especially due to how the piston would be affected by cooling and warming of its own materials and surrounding cylinder walls.

Anyone can search my user ID on here - I post up informative info to help out - not posting “I guess” or “I heard” or “I was told” or “This Dealer told this Salesman told this Manager” BS. I’ve even posted many Ford TSB/SSM/GSB’s to help others diagnose issues. I wouldn’t have posted the articles if I didn’t think they had significance to understanding the PTWA process and also include more factual details about the new gen Coyote.

I’ve seen it posted now in this thread that there were “production errors”??? Where’s the facts to back this up / what type of production errors??

Does the 2018 Coyote have some issues - yes as fully documented on this site alone - but if we’re going to try and nail down the problem, folks must be educated about the engine and the manufacturing processes as well - not just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks, or posting heresay.

Engine assembly tolerances may play a role in the “tick”, and I applaud those members who did provide great analysis in some of the “tick” threads, such as bottom end rod/bearing clearances.

After doing further research myself resulting in many findings such as (2) items above - it’s apparent an engine “tick” is not only isolated to the 2018 5.0 Coyote and does not mean there would be imminent catastrophic engine failures for EVERY 2018 5.0 out there as some of the interweb Chicken Littles want other 2018/19 owners to believe....

 

[Fatguy]

Well this is dissapointing. I guess im going to cut my losses now and sell my 19. Fucking blows ford dropped the ball. I really love this car. I'm scared to even have a built shortblock made for this car with all the issues that need to be addressed. Im sure the majority of engine builders don't even know about half of these problems with the 18/19 design.

Look, I bought a V6 Mustang as an emergency replacement for my other car. I was supposed to get a Hyundai Elantra but at the moment of truth, in the agony of the moment, I looked around the Ford lots and the V6 could fall into the tax class I wanted to buy. All was well and good till I came here and got my gear head mojo back!

So I figured what the F**K I’ll take the hit in the wallet and get a GT and have some fun again like the old 5.0s I owned. Then the new 2018s started having engine problems. Members who owned 2018s told me to stay away! So I almost bought a new 2017 but it was bought a day or too before and there weren’t anymore in black and that was that.

Then we had the forks and clutch in the manuals and now the A10s are falling apart around the 8000 mile mark with complete rebuilds. Meanwhile my old V6 runs perfectly and I never went to a dealer again not even for the free oil changes.


The funny thing here is that guy’s think I’m anti-5.0 and nothing can be further than the truth. Ford just can’t make a reliable car. A guy I work with took a day off because his wife’s car broke down. Turned out the battery and alternator on her HYUNDAI ELANTRA had to be replaced - the first problem they had with the car since PURCHASING IT IN 2011!!!! That’s right- 7 years before something breaks or more accurately, wears out!

We are so used to shit quality here when I mention about the Mustang experience others think I’m exaggerating. When I say my year and a half old V6 Mustang is problem free, that is not expected, rather I am lucky! Ford has to get its act together!

Now to the topic at hand. I seemed to recall the Mustang got an inferior material to line the cylinders than the one it was engineered for in the first place. I also thought the engine was supposed to get cast pistons that don’t have the slap you get with forged pistons that fit looser. I don’t have time to check but this could be one problem. Then you still have dropped valves and timing chains jumping their tracks which happens but nobody talks about here.

I’ve settled in for the long term drive with the my humble V6... At least it’s reliable till the evap goes.


There is always that...

 

[Angry50]

ive had ever model coyote manual and auto and never had any real issues. Manuals basic shifter and transmission fluid swaps. the mt82 does have quirks but fixable. i wouldnt say flop. based on what i have seen probably more of a QA issue and internet hype that causes people to panic.

 

[Blown86GT]

I'm losing brain cells reading some of these replies. "Ford dropped the ball" yet there are thousands and thousands of happy 2018+ customers including people putting down 420+ whp and running 11s bone stock. I also see too many people acting like they know more than Ford powertrain engineers LOL. It sucks some people have issues (and some THINK they have issues but don't) but I wouldn't consider it to be Ford "dropping the ball" by any means.

Chevy actually dropped the ball with the new Camaro because sales of that car have been garbage.

Agreed. Seems ridiculous to announce selling ones vehicle based on the accounts of a few unfortunate 18-19 owners. Its a mechanical device folks..Ford does their best to ensure every single Mustang owner will have thousands of trouble free miles. Manufacturing tolerance stack ups is a possible culprit and is either cost prohibitive or difficult to engineer out of the production process.

Sponsored