Who else is Manual or Bust?

[Norm Peterson]

Pardon me, but you really aren't suggesting that a manual is as fast or faster than a DCT, are you?

I've never even tried to suggest that. Nor have I ever in any of the many MT vs conventional AT threads either. Actually, I expect swapping the MT in my car out for a DCT might cut as much as a second and a half off of lap times at either of my home track's courses. Even though it'd most likely end up having added weight to the car.

But unless you're racing for a win at the dragstrip, or at some "Mexico event", or finishing position in a real race class on a road course, my take on shift time is that it's all but irrelevant. Though I suppose there's the matter of bragging rights for anybody who counts that for much.


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

The problem is that the new manuals can't shift fast because the gearsets are so big and heavy to handle the torque ..they don't engage quickly or at all at high rpms..ive said it in the drag racing forum and I'll say it here..i'll spot a 100 hp difference manual to auto "and dct is even gonna make it worse".. and win everytime...in 1/4- or half mile racing and any short track .and if your willing to give up that much performance then just go ecoboost and feel connected

HPDE isn't officially timed, I don't street-race at all, and drag racing (over any distance) just doesn't interest me.

I think I really would rather chase half a tenth more g's in the corners than have two full seconds handed to me on a silver platter at the dragstrip.


Norm

 

[JR369]

Buddy of mine has a Z06 A8. He needed an oil change so I went with him to the dealership. Saw a black ZR1 A8 ZTK with the big wing that a buyer backed out of and a 19 White ZL1 1LE manual. ZL1 1LE all day long. What a formidable business looking track machine.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Buddy of mine has a Z06 A8. He needed an oil change so I went with him to the dealership. Saw a black ZR1 A8 ZTK with the big wing that a buyer backed out of and a 19 White ZL1 1LE manual. ZL1 1LE all day long. What a formidable business looking track machine.

Yes, they are.

Stay far, far away from any Chevy with the A8. No matter whether it's a Corvette, a Camaro, or a truck. They still haven't found a fix for the A8 shudder, and you'd lose the warranty if you were to go with the aftermarket fix to the slip tables that apparently does work.


Norm

 

[V00D00]

Thanks. I don't always remember everything, especially in fast-moving controversial threads.

I was hoping for a few more numbers . . . though the videos you posted do give me a little confidence that what I've put together is at least in the ballpark. Good enough most of my purposes, anyway.

Same everything except shift time, 30 - 120 mph. Case 1 is the 500ms car, negative values = the 100ms Case 2 car is ahead. I also have plots from corner exit against time, and plots of speeds against both time and position.

And the distance the 100ms shifting car leads the 500ms car vs distance from the corner.

Yeah, I'd call a lead of over 0.7 second and nearly 125 feet on a single 30 - 120 mph pull significant. Great, even, as long as the driver doesn't fool himself into thinking it was because his driving got any better.


Norm

Yes, and thats just for 1 blast. And then add in the saved time and focus from the rev-mtached downshifts. No doubt its a performance advantage, and what every says when a DCT makes an average driver look like a much more experienced one.

for the following posts about shift times, the same gentleman that did the videos and the vboxverify, he analyzed hundred if not thousands of files for all sorts of cars. I dont remember the specifics, but a very very very fast shifter can shift n the 250-300 range, but not repeatable.

 

[LSchicago]

Not Me. I buy whatever is quicker.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Drop manuals "also"? As if Ford has dropped manuals on their Mustangs?

Were you saying the same thing about dropping automatics when Ford gave us the manual only GT350 and Bullitt?

I'm sure he was suggesting as a general trend for the future, and not factoring in every single specialty model. If this DCT winds up kicking ass (and I think that will be the case ...), I'd suspect GM gives it serious consideration on some higher-end-ish models, like the regular ZL1 (!ZLE) and C8 as the __only__ transmission.

 

[LSchicago]

I doubt there will be any Manual transmission options sold in the US by 2030.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

I doubt there will be any Manual transmission options sold in the US by 2030.

Yeah, I imagine they'll dwindle down to only niche specialty performance markets, especially as economy-of-scale, mind-share, warranty, etc., increasingly favors automatics.

I predict the new GT500 never gets a manual, why would it? To appease a tiny segment of people who are either: not buyers or way deep in a queue of unavailability because they're selling every one they can manufacturer.

 

[Braski]

I doubt there will be any Manual transmission options sold in the US by 2030.

By then electric vehicles could be dominating everything, no transmission needed at all! Technology is changing fast!

 

[MaskedRacerX]

By then electric vehicles could be dominating everything, no transmission needed at all! Technology is changing fast!

That's true, and by 2040 it'll be the Planet of the Apes, so we'll just be in riding in cages being pulled by horses ...

 

[Epiphany]

Phht. The current political spew is that we only have 12 years left. We'll never even make it back to the horse stage.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, and thats just for 1 blast. And then add in the saved time and focus from the rev-mtached downshifts. No doubt its a performance advantage, and what every says when a DCT makes an average driver look like a much more experienced one.

When I look at the half-dozen or so accelerations on either of the courses at my home track that start at various speeds ranging between about 50 and 100 mph that end up between 80-ish and 125-ish, the overall difference ends up being around 1.5 seconds per lap. There are no 30-120's, so I never get the full 0.7 second all in one shot. Just a piece here and another piece there, and the spreadsheet does keep track of this - on a separate page that I haven't posted a screenshot from.

I'm not counting any downshift advantage, and I haven't even tried to model that. This is partly because if I screw up a MT downshift I tend to consider that lap a "throw-away" that's not worth the bother trying to figure out what it actually cost me when I already know what the problem was.


Norm

 

[waterman]

C8 will have DCT; The question is which car will be available first GT500 or C8?

Both will use is the Tremec TR-9007. GM applied for a patent for a 7 speed DCT in late summer 2013. Development for a dual-clutch transmission for GM began with Tremec supplier Fassler in 2016. The project was named “GM-DCT.”

In 2017, Tremec asked for assistance developing a new project called “Ford-DCT.” By most accounts, Tremec asked for some changes, likely making the Ford gearbox a variant of the GM-designed one for the mid-engine Corvette with both using similar parts. A similar collaboration occurred with the A10 TC gear developed by both Ford and GM. The DCT partnership was just not as publicized.

By the Detroit giants sharing resources , we the performance car consumer are the greatest beneficiary. What a great era for the automotive enthusiast.

I still love me some Tremec 6060 with a twin disc clutch.

 

[Norm Peterson]

C8 will have DCT; The question is which car will be available first GT500 or C8?

Both will use is the Tremec TR-9007. GM applied for a patent for a 7 speed DCT in late summer 2013. Development for a dual-clutch transmission for GM began with Tremec supplier Fassler in 2016. The project was named “GM-DCT.”

In 2017, Tremec asked for assistance developing a new project called “Ford-DCT.” By most accounts, Tremec asked for some changes, likely making the Ford gearbox a variant of the GM-designed one for the mid-engine Corvette with both using similar parts. A similar collaboration occurred with the A10 TC gear developed by both Ford and GM. The DCT partnership was just not as publicized.

By the Detroit giants sharing resources , we the performance car consumer are the greatest beneficiary. What a great era for the automotive enthusiast.

Very interesting, and not a bit surprising.

I still love me some Tremec 6060 with a twin disc clutch.

Understood. V8-capable MTs get a lot nicer when there's no exposed linkage or semi-remote shifter mounting.


Norm

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