Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[millhouse]

This test was same day same driver, it just wasn't the formal Head2Head like normal. This was the test result from the best driver car article that will be out next month. You will see the same verbiage in a month.

Nope, this test was same driver…different months. They are using the SS1LE numbers used from the PP1 comparison and applying them to the PP2. Again, complete bullshit as different days on a track can equate to several seconds of a difference.

We already know the mustang excels in those area's, this is about performance. There is hardly any argument in which is a better DD or DD/track toy. The argument is if the pp2 can match the 1LE, and it cant, even on the same day, with the PP2 on track/street tires and the 1LE on street tires, plus the PP2 seems to have over heating issues still with a decently quick driver where as the 1LE can seem to do whole sessions with no problem.


I personally dont think ford cares, they sell more mustangs then the other 2 combined, and most that are worried about track only go the GT350 route. It matters to some which car is 0.01 of a sec faster in the hands of a pro, but they fail to realize they are 5-10 seconds slower then that pro, and think they need to modify their cars to be faster. its their skill holding them back.

The PP2 and 1LE has not yet been tested head to head on the same day…hence the reason that article claims it’s not a “comparison”.

I see a shit ton of mustang fanbois relate to this, How ever i dont, and neither do a shit ton of other enthusiast that have to try and justify the performance gap


GT=1ss

GT premium=2ss

GT pp1=1ss1LE

GT prem. pp1=2ss1LE

GT350=ZL1

GT350R=ZL1 1LE


the PP2 was Fords attempt to try and match performance of the 1LE.

So you’re forcing a naturally aspirated GT350 to compare with a supercharged ZL1? Stop it. You are forcing a comparison instead of using rational thought.


The way it stands:


GT= No comparison. The GT comes with all season tires and is far more stripped down than the 1SS.

GT+options = 1SS

GT Premium = 2SS

GT PP1 = N/A. GM doesn’t have a PP1 level package

GT PP2 = SS 1LE

GT350 = N/A. GM doesn’t offer a unique NA engine with higher horsepower and better handling.

GT350R = N/A. This is where the Z28 would normally go.

N/A = ZL1 This is where the GT500 would normally go.

N/A = ZL1 1LE This is where a GT500R would fit.


Again, stop trying to compare Fords naturally aspirated cars against a camaro that has 124 more horsepower and 221lb feet of torque. Just because the GT350 is the highest level mustang available doesn’t mean it’s marketed against GM’s highest level camaro.

Im talking about the tires that come from the factory. pilot cup 2's are a track/street tire, supercar 3's are a "street" tire.


And you are quick to bash Randy, who holds multiple track records, multiple fastest laps and wins while he races part time.. key word part time, please show another champion that races part time? manufactures go to randy with chassis set up and stuff. He pushes a car for all its worth and these are not just a 1 and dione lap, he laps these multiple times and they pick the fastest ones, they had some info with one of their older tests and he was hundredths back to back to back in 5 lap runs. so, pretty sure he knows what hes doing

Those supercar 3 tires wear damn near as fast as the SC2 tires and are apparently damn near as good on the track. Let’s stop pretending that they are a high mileage street oriented tire.

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[gixxersixxerman]

Nope, this test was same driver…different months. They are using the SS1LE numbers used from the PP1 comparison and applying them to the PP2. Again, complete bullshit as different days on a track can equate to several seconds of a difference.





The PP2 and 1LE has not yet been tested head to head on the same day…hence the reason that article claims it’s not a “comparison”.





So you’re forcing a naturally aspirated GT350 to compare with a supercharged ZL1? Stop it. You are forcing a comparison instead of using rational thought.


The way it stands:


GT= No comparison. The GT comes with all season tires and is far more stripped down than the 1SS.

GT+options = 1SS

GT Premium = 2SS

GT PP1 = N/A. GM doesn’t have a PP1 level package

GT PP2 = SS 1LE

GT350 = N/A. GM doesn’t offer a unique NA engine with higher horsepower and better handling.

GT350R = N/A. This is where the Z28 would normally go.

N/A = ZL1 This is where the GT500 would normally go.

N/A = ZL1 1LE This is where a GT500R would fit.


Again, stop trying to compare Fords naturally aspirated cars against a camaro that has 124 more horsepower and 221lb feet of torque. Just because the GT350 is the highest level mustang available doesn’t mean it’s marketed against GM’s highest level camaro.





Those supercar 3 tires wear damn near as fast as the SC2 tires and are apparently damn near as good on the track. Let’s stop pretending that they are a high mileage street oriented tire.

lol, ok guys. again. fanboi-ism is stong. its not anyones fault that fords best pony car didnt come fi and chevy's did. Im sure you are one of those guys that claim you cant compare XXX car against XXX car even though they are in the same class and direct competitor but one comes with a turbo and the other doesnt.. lets just forget that people cross shop them. i guess when someone goes into buying a base GT they cross shop with a V6 camaro and not a ss lolol. Again the 1le is GM's track car, the GTpp was fords until just now. suck it up that the 1LE is a better track car then the pp1, and most likely a better track car then the pp2.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Those supercar 3 tires wear damn near as fast as the SC2 tires and are apparently damn near as good on the track. Let’s stop pretending that they are a high mileage street oriented tire.

No one said they are high mileage street tires, but the cup 2's are in the track category and supercars are not. Again trying to make yourself feel better about why a mustang "lost" because you, like a ton others here, really care about what someone else said about your brand of car.

 

[TheLion]

Im talking about the tires that come from the factory. pilot cup 2's are a track/street tire, supercar 3's are a "street" tire.

And you are quick to bash Randy, who holds multiple track records, multiple fastest laps and wins while he races part time.. key word part time, please show another champion that races part time? manufactures go to randy with chassis set up and stuff. He pushes a car for all its worth and these are not just a 1 and dione lap, he laps these multiple times and they pick the fastest ones, they had some info with one of their older tests and he was hundredths back to back to back in 5 lap runs. so, pretty sure he knows what hes doing

Last win was 8 years ago in 2010 according to wiki...I'm not suggesting he isn't a great driver. But he's not an end all be all source. There are tens of thousands of professional drivers across the world and he's far from the top of them. Different drivers will favor different chassis and setups. Hard to say when there's a 0.7% difference in lap time that one car truly is better performing than another. Like I said, throw in a different driver and the tables may very well turn on the opposite direction. Now if we had 10 different professional drivers test both cars on the same day, and the 1LE came out on top the majority of the time, I'd say it's truly a slightly faster car, but that will never happen, so in reality it's a driver's race between the two cars.

Like I said, the Eagle F1 Supercar 3 tires on the SS are actually designed SPECIFICALLY for the SS. It's a specialty tire for one car from a manufacturer that has attributes tuned just for that car and suspension. You cannot get a better tire off the shelf. Changing tires will upset the car's balance and attributes that make it so great.

Often high end OE's do that to squeeze out handling attributes for their chassis or even tweak out suspension quirks. It's not an off the shelf tire you can buy in 30 different sizes. They don't make the Eagle F1 Supercar 3 in a size that will fit the PP2 GT wheels. It was made to GM's spec. specifically and ONLY for the SS 1LE. The 1LE may actually handle worse with an off the shelf tire even if it's "stickier". You can't assume it will actually produce better times. Outright grip is only a small part of the equation and too grippy of a tire can have negative attributes that make a car twitchy or even unpredictable.

We're all keyboard warriors anyway, so I suppose it doesn't matter. But it's fun to debate some times. I think the magic of the 1LE is in it's extreme level of suspension tuning down to matching custom tires just for it's chassis. It's quite impressive that Ford managed to come within a fraction of a percent on track time at an identical price without having to use custom tuned tires made just for their car. I'm betting the gap would be closed if they went that route. The real question is, could they do it without increasing the price?

You can't ignore that fact. Tires are 75% of handling and these two cars are so darn close it's a drivers race. Yes, with this driver, on this track the 1LE won. But what if we raced them at a larger track where the 3rd gen's 5.0 can stretch it's legs more? Is the PP2 GT a faster car then? WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca is a fairly technical track unlike Willow Springs.

Faster is relative. I'd bet the difference would disappear at a higher speed track where the PP2 can leverage it's higher average power advantage over the SS. So is the 1LE really faster? On some tracks it is, on others it's likely not. In a 1 mile drag race a regular PP GT beat a 2SS by 4 car lengths 30 times in a row...that's well over 0.5 seconds difference. You talking seconds.

Here's some more interesting notes and flaws in the test:
1. your bench-marking a brand new car that's not broken in against a car with thousands of miles on it. 2017 vs. 2018.
2. The driver has obviously had much more seat time in the 1LE having driven it numerous times before.
3. The tires on the 1LE are custom variants tuned specifically for that car to enhance it's handling beyond what a typical off the shelf generic tire can produce
4. Different drivers are going to favor different chassis and handling attributes based on their driving habits / characteristics / style

So we have two cars who ran on the same day and they are so close their time difference is 0.65 seconds which is a 0.7% difference with all of those variables above and we're saying it's a definitive "yup, this car is slower" as opposed to "wow, those two cars are so close it's a drivers race and they are on par".

 

[tyler2k]

millhouse you sound just like the Camaro fanboys did in the early 2000s with the terminator, the highest class Camaro being the ss and highest class mustang being being the cobra, one being NA one being super charged, to them unfair, to mustang guys it's not their fault ford came to win. just like the zl1 vs gt350r, gm came to win and they did. plus how is NA vs forced induction not fair but putting up this exotic,flat plane crank, one car only motor against a run of the mill NA motor fair. bottom line they are competing models at similar price point and Chevy went for the win

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Fact is, if the shoe was on the other foot, you guys would have no problem telling it exactly how i did, tough that GM didnt put a SC on the camaro, should have.. just like the fanbois over at camaro6 do.

 

[millhouse]

lol, ok guys. again. fanboi-ism is stong. its not anyones fault that fords best pony car didnt come fi and chevy's did. Im sure you are one of those guys that claim you cant compare XXX car against XXX car even though they are in the same class and direct competitor but one comes with a turbo and the other doesnt.. lets just forget that people cross shop them. i guess when someone goes into buying a base GT they cross shop with a V6 camaro and not a ss lolol. Again the 1le is GM's track car, the GTpp was fords until just now. suck it up that the 1LE is a better track car then the pp1, and most likely a better track car then the pp2.

I have no problem with the 1LE being claimed a better track car.

No one said they are high mileage street tires, but the cup 2's are in the track category and supercars are not. Again trying to make yourself feel better about why a mustang "lost" because you, like a ton others here, really care about what someone else said about your brand of car.

You’re not getting it. It’s possible that the PP2 lost by MORE than what they are saying. What I’m telling you is the comparison is bullshit. They are using their memory to compare these cars handling characteristics and using times from different months which could easily be a 3 second delta. It’s lazy clickbait journalism.

What I’m also telling you is that it’s quite possible that the SS1LE would go SLOWER on SC2 tires. By all accounts, those supercar 3 tires are truly amazing.

millhouse you sound just like the Camaro fanboys did in the early 2000s with the terminator, the highest class Camaro being the ss and highest class mustang being being the cobra, one being NA one being super charged, to them unfair, to mustang guys it's not their fault ford came to win. just like the zl1 vs gt350r, gm came to win and they did. plus how is NA vs forced induction not fair but putting up this exotic,flat plane crank, one car only motor against a run of the mill NA motor fair. bottom line they are competing models at similar price point and Chevy went for the win

The ZL1 has 124 more horsepower and 221 lb feet of torque more than the GT350. Let’s put this in comparison that you can understand. The SS camaro has 120 more horsepower and 171 more lb ft of torque than the V6 camaro. In other words, the ZL1 has nearly the same horsepower advantage over the GT350 that the SS has over the V6 camaro, and (the ZL1) it has an even larger torque advantage.

But yeah, what am I thinking….it’s totally fine to compare the SS camaro against the V6 camaro for ¼ mile and track performance.

The thing is, Ford has historical had a car that competes with the ZL1, they just don't offer one for the S550 (yet).

 

[02gtnh]

Nope, this test was same driver…different months. They are using the SS1LE numbers used from the PP1 comparison and applying them to the PP2. Again, complete bullshit as different days on a track can equate to several seconds of a difference.





The PP2 and 1LE has not yet been tested head to head on the same day…hence the reason that article claims it’s not a “comparison”.





So you’re forcing a naturally aspirated GT350 to compare with a supercharged ZL1? Stop it. You are forcing a comparison instead of using rational thought.


The way it stands:


GT= No comparison. The GT comes with all season tires and is far more stripped down than the 1SS.

GT+options = 1SS

GT Premium = 2SS

GT PP1 = N/A. GM doesn’t have a PP1 level package

GT PP2 = SS 1LE

GT350 = N/A. GM doesn’t offer a unique NA engine with higher horsepower and better handling.

GT350R = N/A. This is where the Z28 would normally go.

N/A = ZL1 This is where the GT500 would normally go.

N/A = ZL1 1LE This is where a GT500R would fit.


Again, stop trying to compare Fords naturally aspirated cars against a camaro that has 124 more horsepower and 221lb feet of torque. Just because the GT350 is the highest level mustang available doesn’t mean it’s marketed against GM’s highest level camaro.





Those supercar 3 tires wear damn near as fast as the SC2 tires and are apparently damn near as good on the track. Let’s stop pretending that they are a high mileage street oriented tire.

Hate to bust your bubble, but John Leberman post the 1ss 1le time over a month ago for the best drivers car and said it went .01 sec faster then the last test at LS. Then he said the PP2 was next and left us hanging on the results. You will see in about a month.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Im sure when the gt500 comes out, and its a $90k+ car youll have no problem comparing it then.. because all a sudden price and stuff.. same things being said in here where their shouldnt be a comparison wont matter.. even though now it does.

Hate to bust your bubble, but John Leberman post the 1ss 1le time over a month ago for the best drivers car and said it went .01 sec faster then the last test at LS. Then he said the PP2 was next and left us hanging on the results. You will see in about a month.

It wont matter, whom ever "Loses" in the times, their respective fanbois will come out in force. whether its motortrend is unfair, or tires, or driver.. always have an excuse.

 

[TheLion]

Here's more to support my stance on the tires:

Tire:
Michelin Pilot Sport 4SMax Performance Summer
Vehicle:
2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1

4

• Miles Driven on Tires:
  700
  Location:
  HONDO, TX
• Driving Condition:
  Combined Highway/City
  Driving Style:
  Spirited

• 2 of 2 people found the following review helpful:

Initial Review:
700 Miles on Tires
June 12, 2018
Tirerack got these to me fast. I had high expectations of the PS4S's. With a 300AA treadwear rating, I was hoping to get similar, or better performance than the Good Year F1 Supercar 3's. The sidewalls feel to soft in the turns, they are to sensitive to temperature change (hard to keep even pressures), and the traction isn't there. My worn out F1's provided about the same traction on the rear. I don't have the confidence that the F1's provided. I avoid driving this car in the rain, so I can't vouch, for wet traction, or handling.

There's a 2017 ZL1 owner, the ZL1 uses the same tires as the 1LE. Only the ZL1 1LE uses something more exotic. The PS4's are darn good tires and in the same class as F1 Supercar 3's and by tire racks testing better tires period than the off the shelf versions of the F1 Supercars. Yet how is it that this ZL1 owner experienced degraded performance? Because the tires are a modified variant specific for that car. It makes a big difference and it's a huge advantage the 1LE boasts over the PP2 regardless of all other metrics. Ask and Porsche or other exotic owner about that.

The 1LE uses all those tweaks to get it's performance and it's so darn close (both price and lap times). Yet it's street car attributes are not so great. It's not fanboyism to point out differences in a comparison test or questioning weather one car really is faster than another.

Faster is relative to so many things. What i'm suggesting is that it's an overly simplistic conclusion and there's quite a few mis-matches other than pricing. The results are too close to be definitive. Is a 1LE faster than a PP1 GT? Absolutely (unless your doing a 1 mile drag race, then the 1LE is slower). The difference in track times are big enough that any mis-matches or errors in the comparison can't account for that difference.

But that's not the case here. There are quite a few variables that matter when we're talking such a close race. And making statements saying it's so much better and would be faster if it had the same tires isn't necessarily true either. In my book it would come down to the driver if you raced these two cars as is because they are so close on the track.

 

[millhouse]

Hate to bust your bubble, but John Leberman post the 1ss 1le time over a month ago for the best drivers car and said it went .01 sec faster then the last test at LS. Then he said the PP2 was next and left us hanging on the results. You will see in about a month.

From the article in question...

"Although we did not have both cars at the same time to do it properly, they were, in fact, tested in the same locations and by the same drivers. "

Different days, bullshit comparison...sorry.

If/when they test them on the same days...then we can talk. Don't get me wrong, I fully expect the 1LE to come out on top, but we won't know until a real same track/same day/same driver comparison takes place.

 

[ALUSA]

Im sure when the gt500 comes out, and its a $90k+ car youll have no problem comparing it then.. because all a sudden price and stuff.. same things being said in here where their shouldnt be a comparison wont matter.. even though now it does.



It wont matter, whom ever "Loses" in the times, their respective fanbois will come out in force. whether its motortrend is unfair, or tires, or driver.. always have an excuse.

90 grand ohh boy. Missed the good old days you could buy a GT500 for 60 grand. Unfortunately Ford killed that price point with the GT350. Now they either have to raise the bar way up there to a ZO6 Vette/ Demon territory, or be ok with the criticism. Who am i kidding, people will still go ahead and buy the car just for its legacy. Ford could have force fed the GT350 and get it over with but they are up to something. Lets wait and see.

 

[tyler2k]

so then what your saying is, ford cant build a comparable mustang for the same price point that Chevy can build the Camaro, and let's be honest the gt500 is gonna come in way more then a zl1 probably closer to Corvette territory. bottom line ford gives you x for y cost and Chevy gives you z for the same y cost. and isn't the R supposed to be an all out track car, cause the zl1 isnt. plus I'm sure you can pull up 100s of cars with huge horsepower advantages that get beat around a track.

 

[Hack]

so then what your saying is, ford cant build a comparable mustang for the same price point that Chevy can build the Camaro, and let's be honest the gt500 is gonna come in way more then a zl1 probably closer to Corvette territory. bottom line ford gives you x for y cost and Chevy gives you z for the same y cost. and isn't the R supposed to be an all out track car, cause the zl1 isnt. plus I'm sure you can pull up 100s of cars with huge horsepower advantages that get beat around a track.

Yep the Mustang sucks and is not comparable to the Camaro. All you have to do is look at sales and you will be able to tell that.

 

[tyler2k]

first off, never said the mustang sucks, if actually owned 4 compared to my one Camaro including the 2 newest body style and would have an 18 pp2 if ford felt like dealing. difference is I'm not a fanboy and can give praise where its do regardless of manufacturer. and yea the gt350 is a crazy idea that ford put together but sorry for the same price the zl1 comes with more options and more power and wins every performance metric.

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