Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[thehunterooo]

Pretty sure track performance is all people are buying these cars for. Any 1LE owner is on the track everyday racing for money or driving aggressively on back roads to Walmart hence why Motor Trend is covering what they do.

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[TheLion]

What I didn't like about the Motor Trend review is that they talked very thoroughly about performance, but nothing else. What's the interior like? What about driving the car in traffic? Infotainment? Exhaust sound? Lighting and visibility? Seat comfort? Trunk usability? What about all the things that you do 99% of the time? Most people can't afford to spend all their time at the track. Most people also can't afford to buy a brand new car just for track outings either.

That is one of the reasons why the Mustang outsells the Camaro. It's not because of performance in factory trim. They are close enough that both are plenty fun to drive. The Camaro is the track star in factory form because that's Chevy's goal, but the reality is most people are NOT buying an out of the box track variant. They are buying the 1 or 2 SS or a base GT or PP GTs with no other options and doing their own mods.

Many of them daily drive their cars. None of these cars will drive as well from the factory as the after market can achieve because the finance rules (scheduling, cost limits, limits to time testing, project requirements for NVH etc.) are against OE setups. Period. All records are set by custom cars. I'm pretty sure a Mustang GT4 would walk all over any of the factory offerings from both Ford and Chevy. Yet it's from a production Mustang chassis....Ford's project requirements are different than Chevy's. Their product structure is different as are their products.

I'm sorry but one editor who races on the side and hasn't won a champion ship for over 8 years isn't an end all be all authority. There are tens of thousands of professional drivers of all kinds of various motor sports of all different skill levels, abilities and preferences to chassis setups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Pobst

How do we know the SS 1LE is actually "this fast"? Some times track setups in less experienced hands could be much slower with an average driver and one who knows how to take advantage of it. There is a huge element of driver skill. Just look at the GT350R, what they liked about it was that it was "easy to drive", but easy to drive does NOT always translate into the "fastest car". It does when it comes to less skilled drivers, but not very skilled drivers who can take advantage of certain handling attributes that need to be precisely controlled and executed by the driver.

The same is true with competitive fire arms or any other sport that involves humans and machines. Setups that work well for one professional may be sub-par for another or in less skilled hands. If you really wanted to see how fast a car is and remove as much of the human factor as you can, one would need to test the car with quite a few top tier drivers all on the same day, having each drive both cars. Then compare the fastest times of each car. They are close enough that 0.67 seconds is WELL within human error or track day weather variations. And even that may not be enough, some cars take time to learn and after spending months with it, you can leverage performance to a greater degree than other cars.

Heck even on a 1/4 mile drag strip, the difference between noon and cool evening can be 1/2 a second and that's in a straight line for 12~13 seconds.

 

[TheLion]

Take a look at the aspects that matter more to most people than raw performance on a track they are not likely to ever drive on: trunk space, interior space, interior storage space, head room, visibility, interior styling and quality, price point, NVH levels, exterior styling, options and price. Also there's a decent amount who look at stripped down variants that want to do their own performance modifications. As far as I'm aware, Chevy doesn't offer a Super Charger kit that's covered under warranty for the regular SS. You have to pay a huge premium for the ZL1, there's no upgrade path without going completely after market.

I think Ford Performance represents Ford's attempt at competition with GM on the track where GM's car's are equipped that way as a normal option at the expense of the above qualities that most buyers look for. I really think a fair comparison would a Ford Performance equipped model compared to the 1LE. Where a PP1 GT should be compared to a 1 or 2 SS.

 

[TheLion]

Good post, but I did want to point out the bold:

It's not really "by the same margin", going by MSRP, including destination (i.e., final summary price), and using 2018 for the GT350R and 1LE and 2019 for the GT, here are the prices:

$44,995 1LE

$40,345 GT with PP1
$36,350 GT, base

$65,735 GT350R

Nothing added, other than the 1LE package to a base SS and the PP1 to a base GT. vs. a PP1 GT, the 1LE is $4650 more expensive (or $8645 more than a base model GT), however the GT350R is $20,740 more than a 1LE. The 1LE includes Mag suspension, add that to the GT which also requires a bump from 300A to 301A, and the price is $44,040, making the 1LE $955 more.

To be clear, I'm not adding any narrative to this, just kind of framing the price part of the discussion

I think your pricing is a little off. I have the actual window sticker of my 2016 GT optioned only with Performance Package , Rear Park Assist and $300 up charge for Ruby Red color. Sticker is $36,300 with those three options. Maybe I can dig it up and post a picture just you know that's what it really is. That's the listed MSRP.

You'd need to add the Premium Package with Performance Package to hit 40k.

PP1 GT = 1/2SS
PP2 GT is = 1LE
GT350R = ZL1
ZL1 1LE is the fastest but retarded expensive (base price $71,295) and Ford doesn't have a direct competitor (maybe the new GT500, but not sure as that seems like it may be geared more towards 1/4 mile performance than track where the ZL1 1LE is a super charged 1LE).

So right now, I'm on Chevy's site, pricing out a 2017 1SS in Garnet Red (similar to ruby). 6 Speed Manual WITHOUT the track pack as it's $6,500 up-charge. So the 1SS I'm optioning doesn't have a limited slip diff, 6 piston Brembo brakes, track suspension tuning etc. and i'm already at 38,295 MSRP. That's 2k over my 2016 PP GT as optoined....adding just the "Performance Enthusiast Package" adds $2,500 and the only real performance add on is lowering springs. Rest is cosmetic. We're at $40k for a base 1SS 6M with lowering springs....

A Performance Package 1 2018 GT 6M runs 40k but has added cooling for engine and brakes, Torsen limited slip diff, chassis bracing, 6 piston brembos, PP specific stability control and ABS calibrations etc.. The 1SS above optioned only with the lowering springs and Garnet Red brings the SS up to 40k. But with the GT you get a lot more than just lowering springs for 40k (also in Ruby Red). The 3rd gen 5.0 makes quite a bit more average power than the LT1 or a Power Pack 2 2nd Gen 5.0.

Base weight of the 2018 GT is still 3705 lbs, base weight of the SS is 3685 lbs. Not sure how much weight the PP1 adds to a 2018 GT, but if it's similar to the 2015-2016's it will add about 75 lbs, half of which is in the wheels. The GT's higher average power will compensate however. I'm skeptical that 75 lbs is going to make or break 3700 lbs cars in handling.

GM does a better job at weight control with track options, one of which is their track wheels are Forged, so they are going to be lighter in weight. I don't believe any of Ford's PP wheels are forged, all are low pressure cast which is typical OEM wheels. Plenty strong, but heavy.

My Flow Formed RTR Tech 7's knock off 38 lbs over PP wheels just by themselves. FP cat back exhaust is 30 lbs lighter. There's your weigh right there lol. It's not a chassis thing, the weight comes from the parts and Ford isn't as anal about controlling weight, however their costs are also lower and those things can be changed after.

 

[Mountain376]

What I didn't like about the Motor Trend review is that they talked very thoroughly about performance, but nothing else. What's the interior like? What about driving the car in traffic? Infotainment? Exhaust sound? Lighting and visibility? Seat comfort? Trunk usability? What about all the things that you do 99% of the time? Most people can't afford to spend all their time at the track. Most people also can't afford to buy a brand new car just for track outings either.

Well, maybe because the intention of the article was from a performance capability standpoint and not a hollitic car review? I know the whole purpose/intention thing of articles (and threads...) is a confusing concept.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

I think your pricing is a little off. I have the actual window sticker of my 2016 GT optioned only with Performance Package , Rear Park Assist and $300 up charge for Ruby Red color. Sticker is $36,300 with those three options. Maybe I can dig it up and post a picture just you know that's what it really is. That's the listed MSRP.

You'd need to add the Premium Package with Performance Package to hit 40k.

Nope. Non-Premium (it would be shown as GT Premium in the heading, under 2019 Mustang), plus Perf Pack 1, right from Ford's site - as I indicated, this is using 2019 pricing:

 

[TheLion]

Base price is is 35k...add in performance package only and your at 40k. Base 1SS price is 38k (technically $37,900), add in Performance Enthusiast package ($2,500) and your at 40k....I'm not seeing how the SS is priced similarly. You get very little in the way of performance upgrades at that price point for the 2017 and 2018 SS's. But they are pretty darn good even in base form. A base 1SS is roughly equivalent to a PP GT in handling, but lacks the brakes, added cooling and limited slip differential.

Now if your comparing the first gen S550 like mine, it's an even bigger discrepancy (albeit a 2016 1SS still slightly outperformed a 2016 PP GT in the figure 8 and 1/4 mile on MT, but not by much) and it's (SS) quite a bit pricier than my window sticker which has an MSRP of $36,300 as equipped. There were 3 non-base options on mine, Performance Package, Ruby Red tri-coat paint and Rear Parking Assist.

I guess I'm confused as to how you can say the 2015-2017 MSRP's are much higher when I have the literal window sticker in my filing cabinet....I recall looking back at Ford's web site last year before the 2018's were up (2017 pricing) and base price was $33k for a 2017 GT fast back. Performance Package alone added $2,400. The 2018 base price went up $2k to $35k. But base pricing for 2017 GT was $33k while base pricing for a 2017 SS is $38k. GM still has 2017's listed.

The SS starts out (1SS) as base as you can get at $37,900 in white paint. That's a pretty big price difference between a 2015-2017 GT Fastback and 1SS. You could buy a 2015-2017 PP GT for $35,500, add in a Power Pack 2 ($600) and a Ford Performance Track Handling Pack ($1,500) and be even in price with a base 1SS, those are covered under warranty if installed by a dealer and emissions legal for the power pack.

I can guarantee you a Track Handling Pack PP GT with a Power Pack 2 will best a 1SS on the track. They are already extremely close stock to stock and I'm quoting new prices. Used car pricing, the gap seems to hold or grow even a little bit more, at least for listings in my area. It's just a pricey car, a great one, but very pricey.

The 2018 PP1 GT's (stock) are a much closer match to a 1SS stock and pricing is also nearly identical when optioned similarly with the edge in features going to the PP1 GT as a 1SS with the Performance Enthusiast package is mostly lowering springs and cosmetics. Next package up is the $6,500 track handling package that makes it a 1LE.

I think that where Ford got their formula right. They gave you 97% of the 1SS's performance but at several thousand dollars cheaper (at least for the first gen S550's from 2015-2017) with room to grow all under warranty. And you have a more practical car over all.

For those that want the added performance, the price difference is covered by the two Ford Performance upgrades. For those that don't care, the S550 offers a more enjoyable Grand Touring car experience. It really is great for the Grand Touring aspect. Visibility, noise, trunk space (especially on long trips) and interior storage space all matter for any practical driving aspect.

Neither is necessary the best, but I think one does offer a better balance and the performance is there for a small fee if you want it bringing your total to par. But there's no fee you can pay to fix the Alpha's short comings from a practical standpoint. The trailing link rear suspension really takes up a lot of room, thus limiting cargo space quite a bit. You can't fix visibility issues or interior storage issues. There's not really much on the SS to strip down to make it lighter either, throw on a set of lightweight wheels and Ford Performance Cat Back exhaust (or some other after market ones) and you shed 68 lbs, bringing the weight down to base weight but with all the track focused goodies like brakes, added cooling, limited slip diff etc.

 

[Hack]

Well, maybe because the intention of the article was from a performance capability standpoint and not a hollitic car review? I know the whole purpose/intention thing of articles (and threads...) is a confusing concept.

It's confusing, huh? Funny.

Just another incomplete car review with 99% of what people use and want completely ignored. Why consider driving around town to get groceries? I never do that!

 

[02gtnh]

I'm sorry, another bullshit comparison. Different days can mean a +/- 3 second swing. There is nothing definitive as to which car is faster around the track from that article. I'm not saying the mustang should be faster, but motortrend doing a different day comparison is complete and utter bullshit.

This test was same day same driver, it just wasn't the formal Head2Head like normal. This was the test result from the best driver car article that will be out next month. You will see the same verbiage in a month.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

What I didn't like about the Motor Trend review is that they talked very thoroughly about performance, but nothing else. What's the interior like? What about driving the car in traffic? Infotainment? Exhaust sound? Lighting and visibility? Seat comfort? Trunk usability? What about all the things that you do 99% of the time? Most people can't afford to spend all their time at the track. Most people also can't afford to buy a brand new car just for track outings either.

We already know the mustang excels in those area's, this is about performance. There is hardly any argument in which is a better DD or DD/track toy. The argument is if the pp2 can match the 1LE, and it cant, even on the same day, with the PP2 on track/street tires and the 1LE on street tires, plus the PP2 seems to have over heating issues still with a decently quick driver where as the 1LE can seem to do whole sessions with no problem.

I personally dont think ford cares, they sell more mustangs then the other 2 combined, and most that are worried about track only go the GT350 route. It matters to some which car is 0.01 of a sec faster in the hands of a pro, but they fail to realize they are 5-10 seconds slower then that pro, and think they need to modify their cars to be faster. its their skill holding them back.

 

[TheLion]

It's confusing, huh? Funny.

Just another incomplete car review with 99% of what people use and want completely ignored. Why consider driving around town to get groceries? I never do that!

No one would ever take a trip out of state in these cars either...that wouldn't be super fun to drive them through the winding foot hills of PA or go out to the Rockies in the West...but because the 1SS runs a 24.1 second figure 8 and the PP GT runs a 24.4 second figure 8 the SS is a better car despite having all of the negatives listed above in my previous post and higher price tag.

BTW, the percent difference between those times is 1.2%...a whopping 1.2%....lets forget all facets of what makes a car enjoyable to drive on the street, because how it performs on a track must be why the Mustang outsells the Camaro's....oh wait, that's not why. You would think they would do a better job acknowledging the differences beyond just raw track performance.

Even though it's a bit bogus due to the PP2 GT being run on a different day than the SS 1LE, a 1:38.42 vs. a 1:37.77 is pretty darn small difference. Again if we put it in percent difference, guess what, a 0.7% faster time on the 1LE...i'm gonna say these two cars run nearly identical lap times. That is well within human error margin. The PP2's electronic stability controls also needed some tuning according to Pobst, but what if Pobst isn't the best driver and couldn't use PP2 GT's chassis dynamics to it's fullest but he could with the 1LE?

After all, he hasn't won in the last 8 years of racing on the side...I'm not sure if Ford utilized their in house expertise for tuning the PP2, but they have a pretty respectable team of drivers in all their different types of racing, these are professional drivers who drive for a living. Not magazine editors that compete on the side.

It would be interesting to see how he would do in the SS 1LE against a Ford team driver and then swap to see the differences between how each driver ran in those two cars on the same day. Or how would a 2015-2017 PP GT equipped with a Ford Performance Track Handling Pack and Power Pack 2 fare? I think Ford's real attempts at track performance come from Ford Performance and their "factory" upgrades. Warranty compliant modifications for both suspension and chassis. Emissions legal and warrantied engine calibrations. GM offers upgrades too that are warranty safe, but not nearly as extensively.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

PP1 GT = 1/2SS
PP2 GT is = 1LE
GT350R = ZL1

I see a shit ton of mustang fanbois relate to this, How ever i dont, and neither do a shit ton of other enthusiast that have to try and justify the performance gap

GT=1ss
GT premium=2ss
GT pp1=1ss1LE
GT prem. pp1=2ss1LE
GT350=ZL1
GT350R=ZL1 1LE

the PP2 was Fords attempt to try and match performance of the 1LE.

 

[TheLion]

We already know the mustang excels in those area's, this is about performance. There is hardly any argument in which is a better DD or DD/track toy. The argument is if the pp2 can match the 1LE, and it cant, even on the same day, with the PP2 on track/street tires and the 1LE on street tires, plus the PP2 seems to have over heating issues still with a decently quick driver where as the 1LE can seem to do whole sessions with no problem.

I personally dont think ford cares, they sell more mustangs then the other 2 combined, and most that are worried about track only go the GT350 route. It matters to some which car is 0.01 of a sec faster in the hands of a pro, but they fail to realize they are 5-10 seconds slower then that pro, and think they need to modify their cars to be faster. its their skill holding them back.

Not necessarily so with tires. I read a few reviews of SS owners (2017 ZL1) who swapped out his Goodyear Eagle Super Car factory tires for better rated Michelin's (on tire rack) and had negative handling characteristics. The suspension is highly tuned and throwing on this tire or that tire may not necessarily be beneficial. Some times manufacturers even specify a certain variant of a standard tire that's tuned for their specific chassis. In fact GM is one of them. There are model specific variants of the Goodyear Eagle tires that are modified specifically for that car. Ford is just using standard off the shelf Michelin's.

How do you know the PP2 GT wouldn't benefit from customized tires for it's chassis and tuning? Or if a more experienced driver was to drive both? What if a Ford team driver tested both cars? They are so darn close...0.7%...that it's well within the margin of human error or personal preferences for one car over another. If the PP2 GT was several seconds slower, I'd be more willing to say the SS 1LE is faster, but they are so close it's a drivers race and comes down to who can use their car's dynamics to the best of it's capability.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Not necessarily so with tires. I read a few reviews of SS owners (2017 ZL1) who swapped out his Goodyear Eagle Super Car factory tires for better rated Michelin's (on tire rack) and had negative handling characteristics. The suspension is highly tuned and throwing on this tire or that tire may not necessarily be beneficial. Some times manufacturers even specify a certain variant of a standard tire that's tuned for their specific chassis. In fact GM is one of them. There are model specific variants of the Goodyear Eagle tires that are modified specifically for that car. Ford is just using standard off the shelf Michelin's.

How do you know the PP2 GT wouldn't benefit from customized tires for it's chassis and tuning? Or if a more experienced driver was to drive both? What if a Ford team driver tested both cars? They are so darn close...0.7%...that it's well within the margin of human error or personal preferences for one car over another. If the PP2 GT was several seconds slower, I'd be more willing to say the SS 1LE is faster, but they are so close it's a drivers race and comes down to who can use their car's dynamics to the best of it's capability.

Im talking about the tires that come from the factory. pilot cup 2's are a track/street tire, supercar 3's are a "street" tire.

And you are quick to bash Randy, who holds multiple track records, multiple fastest laps and wins while he races part time.. key word part time, please show another champion that races part time? manufactures go to randy with chassis set up and stuff. He pushes a car for all its worth and these are not just a 1 and dione lap, he laps these multiple times and they pick the fastest ones, they had some info with one of their older tests and he was hundredths back to back to back in 5 lap runs. so, pretty sure he knows what hes doing

 

[TheLion]

I see a shit ton of mustang fanbois relate to this, How ever i dont, and neither do a shit ton of other enthusiast that have to try and justify the performance gap

GT=1ss
GT premium=2ss
GT pp1=1ss1LE
GT prem. pp1=2ss1LE
GT350=ZL1
GT350R=ZL1 1LE

the PP2 was Fords attempt to try and match performance of the 1LE.

Not if you consider pricing. A 2018 PP1 GT runs $40,000 flat. A 2018 1SS 1LE runs $44,500. That's a nearly $5k price difference right off their web sites for MSRP (like as in right now I just priced them with only those options). A 2018 PP2 GT runs $44,800 right off their web site, matching the 1LE price. PP2 is their counter to 1LE and they are within 0.7% time difference on a track. That's darn close, so close I'm going to say different drivers may swing the favor differently.

However the 1LE is better suited to hard core track use as it has the diff and trans cooling the PP2 GT lacks. That is something they should have added to the PP2 option. But if you just want to do a few laps for fun a few times a year that's not necessary. In terms of performance on a single lap (timed racing, like in auto x):

PP GT = 1SS
Preminum PP GT = 2SS
PP2 GT = 1LE
GT350 = ZL1
GT350R < ZL1 1LE

Ford doesn't have a direct competitor to the ZL1 1LE. It's a super charged track variant. The GT350 R is NA, but if you beat on those cars I'll be my bottom dollar the NA 5.2 will hold up better than the FI 6.2...NA is always more reliable and durable. But again Ford doesn't include diff cooling or trans cooling unless you use Ford Performance. Incidentally they also offer a suspension upgrade package for the GT350. It would be interesting to see how it would fare with their upgrades (tans + diff cooling + suspension package).

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