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Why not a 5.9L Coyote?

zackmd1

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I'm not giving up on ICE though. I still think there's a chance someone will invent a gasoline substitute that will run any existing gasoline engine and have only H2O as the exhaust. (Hey, I can dream! LOL)
Porsche is trying that with efuel! Basically making methanol by pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere and combining it with hydrogen from water. So the whole process is carbon neutral because the CO2 that goes into the atmosphere from burning it is pulled out to make it. Unfortunately, cost is currently sitting at about $35-45 per gallon with a price target around $7-8 a gallon with production ramp up.
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sk47

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I truly do think it’s funny how much people on this site hate anything related to electrification.... Separate the politics from the technology...
Hello; Several of us on this forum had lengthily back & forths about EV's, green energy and the bans on ICE. I guess some can be rehashed since the can of worms had the lid propped open again. Guess i made way for the opening of that lid by pointing out how much money Ford & GM lost on the last go around. Even those substantial losses pale in reflection to what the debacle has cost all of us from the inflation generated by all the spending.

To be correct the problems with EV's can be divorced from the politics which were so disturbing. EV's are not ready for prime time. The notion sounds good to be sure and there are a few niche conditions in which an EV can work well enough. A thing is people, even ICE enthusiasts, can recognize a better product when it truly is a better product. The EV is not truly workable for the majority of us.
I spent a few days contacting mayoral candidates for the current primary. I had one main question. That being their stance on new data centers. Only one told me he was against them. Unfortunately, he wrecked his Harley and died in the last couple of days. My concerns were the water use, the noise & the electricity cost. With electricity capacity & cost being paramount. The electric grid is hard pressed to handle extreme cold & hot spells already. Not ready for data centers and especially pure EV's. The reasons to be against EV's are real and practical.
 

zackmd1

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Hello; Several of us on this forum had lengthily back & forths about EV's, green energy and the bans on ICE. I guess some can be rehashed since the can of worms had the lid propped open again. Guess i made way for the opening of that lid by pointing out how much money Ford & GM lost on the last go around. Even those substantial losses pale in reflection to what the debacle has cost all of us from the inflation generated by all the spending.

To be correct the problems with EV's can be divorced from the politics which were so disturbing. EV's are not ready for prime time. The notion sounds good to be sure and there are a few niche conditions in which an EV can work well enough. A thing is people, even ICE enthusiasts, can recognize a better product when it truly is a better product. The EV is not truly workable for the majority of us.
I spent a few days contacting mayoral candidates for the current primary. I had one main question. That being their stance on new data centers. Only one told me he was against them. Unfortunately, he wrecked his Harley and died in the last couple of days. My concerns were the water use, the noise & the electricity cost. With electricity capacity & cost being paramount. The electric grid is hard pressed to handle extreme cold & hot spells already. Not ready for data centers and especially pure EV's. The reasons to be against EV's are real and practical.
EVs can actually assist with grid strain by acting as a storage battery when plugged in and not charging. But yes, charging demand does have to be balanced with grid supply.

Ford and GM "lost" money on EVs because their entire supply chain and manufacturing business have to be retooled and reconfigured to build a proper EV. Once that is done, EVs can be profitable. Look at the Model 3 and Tesla before they decided robots were more interesting.

Because of the politics there is ALOT of misinformation going around about EVs that gets continually brought up as reasons why people can't/won't switch. Most of it is simply not true speaking from first-hand experience... You don't need to replace the battery every couple thousand miles, there are WAY more fast chargers then you might think, charging doesn't have to be an hr long ordeal, you can road trip in an EV and no it doesn't take hours longer to get to your destination, etc...

Where EVs might not make the most sense yet is for those that do not have a house and can charge overnight. So people that live in apartments, etc... That's where faster charging comes into play (5-10min recharge times now possible and rolling out slowly). EV trucks also don't make much sense currently due to the infrastructure not being designed for a vehicle towing something and the fact that range gets cut in half or more when towing. EREVs come into play there.

Also keep in mind that pretty much every EV built has followed the same 14 year old mold that is the Tesla Model S. In the rush to get EVs out the door, no one really tried anything new and instead just tried to copy Tesla as best they could. We are just now starting to see automakers play around with what is possible with an EV drivetrain with concept cars...

But again, steering back to on topic, JPC was the one company very early in the Coyote's life that created a 5.8L stroker kit. They never released it due to durability concerns but it shows 5.8 is technically possible within the current coyote block. That being said, 5.2-5.4 is the limit in terms of acceptable durability.
 
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OldbutNew

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The reality of why the OE's tried to skip the hybrid phase and go straight from ICE to full EV is economics. Well, maybe just greed.
Think about the path gasoline takes from the filler neck to the tailpipe. Tank, lines, pumps, vapor recovery, injectors, cams, pistons, block, You get the idea. Now, throw in calibration, emissions and CAFE certifications. This is all QUITE expensive.
By eliminating all of these things that ICE absolutely require, the OE's were looking at about a 20-25% reduction in engineering overhead. Another 10% reduction in assembly plant personnel and footprint. No engine dress line. No fuel fill, no coolant fill, no exhaust fumes, getting the picture??

When the Federal Government started handing out billions of OUR dollars to start the EV revolution, the OE's saw the opportunity to make this move and have the gov't pay for it.
Hybrids did NOT qualify for the handouts. Nor did they provide the reductions in costs, they only added to them. I agree that EV's will find their place and that a gradual transition will happen.
IMO, ICE engines will remain the primary source of transportation for many years to come.
There has been mention about grid strain and power production. That's a huge issue as well.
But a topic for another thread...
 

engineermike

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As I mentioned, I did all the math and research regarding stroking the short deck coyote. There’s only so much distance between the crank centerline and the deck. The rod (5.933) almost certainly has to be shortened if you add any stroke at all and your rod/stroke ratio gets worse in both the numerator and denominator. Even still you start pushing the pin higher up in the piston which squeezes the ring pack together, weakening the ring lands. It’s not pretty if you try going past 5.2. I wonder if they do actually build a 5.4 s650 will they go back to the tall deck block like s197 5.4.

Stock gt500 vs coyote piston:

1785115101109-t1.webp
 

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zackmd1

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As I mentioned, I did all the math and research regarding stroking the short deck coyote. There’s only so much distance between the crank centerline and the deck. The rod (5.933) almost certainly has to be shortened if you add any stroke at all and your rod/stroke ratio gets worse in both the numerator and denominator. Even still you start pushing the pin higher up in the piston which squeezes the ring pack together, weakening the ring lands. It’s not pretty if you try going past 5.2. I wonder if they do actually build a 5.4 s650 will they go back to the tall deck block like s197 5.4.

Stock gt500 vs coyote piston:

1785115101109-t1.webp
I’d love to see the specifics of that GT3 motor to know how they got 5.4 out of it…
 
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Rick#7

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I’d love to see the specifics of that GT3 motor to know how they got 5.4 out of it…
It's basically a voodoo block with a cross plane stroker crank. MMR has a stroker crank that will get you 5.4L with a 94mm bore, so it's a proven combination and the practical limit within the dimensions of the current coyote/voodoo architecture. The biggest drawback to that long of a stroke is it normally uses a slightly shorter rod to fit it all in the stock deck height, making for a terrible rod/stroke ratio. It's not an ideal setup, and not a good idea for a street engine, but it works for a race engine that needs a broad torque curve to pull the car out of corners on a track, and it's going to be torn down after every endurance race anyway. IIRC, Eagle made a stroker kit that was not quite as long a stroke as the MMR crank, so it might have pushed displacement to only 5.3, but they actually used a rod that was a tiny bit longer than stock. The downside to that combo was an incredibly short piston and thin ring stack. Definitely not a good idea for an endurance engine, but it probably would work well for a drag racer that only pushed the engine to it's limits a few seconds at a time.
 

sk47

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EVs can actually assist with grid strain by acting as a storage battery when plugged in and not charging. But yes, charging demand does have to be balanced with grid supply.

Ford and GM "lost" money on EVs because their entire supply chain and manufacturing business have to be retooled and reconfigured to build a proper EV. Once that is done, EVs can be profitable. Look at the Model 3 and Tesla before they decided robots were more interesting.

Because of the politics there is ALOT of misinformation going around about EVs that gets continually brought up as reasons why people can't/won't switch. Most of it is simply not true speaking from first-hand experience... You don't need to replace the battery every couple thousand miles, there are WAY more fast chargers then you might think, charging doesn't have to be an hr long ordeal, you can road trip in an EV and no it doesn't take hours longer to get to your destination, etc...

Where EVs might not make the most sense yet is for those that do not have a house and can charge overnight. So people that live in apartments, etc... That's where faster charging comes into play (5-10min recharge times now possible and rolling out slowly). EV trucks also don't make much sense currently due to the infrastructure not being designed for a vehicle towing something and the fact that range gets cut in half or more when towing. EREVs come into play there.

Also keep in mind that pretty much every EV built has followed the same 14 year old mold that is the Tesla Model S. In the rush to get EVs out the door, no one really tried anything new and instead just tried to copy Tesla as best they could. We are just now starting to see automakers play around with what is possible with an EV drivetrain with concept cars...

But again, steering back to on topic, JPC was the one company very early in the Coyote's life that created a 5.8L stroker kit. They never released it due to durability concerns but it shows 5.8 is technically possible within the current coyote block. That being said, 5.2-5.4 is the limit in terms of acceptable durability.
Hello; Since you try to sugar coat the issues I will briefly respond. One of the main issues with two forms of green energy is the intermittent function. Solar does not work in the dark & the wind does not always blow. Among the early ideas was to create expensive battery backups to store energy for dark and/or windless times. Then someone had an idea. Why not turn a person's privately owned EV into part of that required energy backup plan. I do not know the legal details but yes your personally paid for EV can have it's stored battery energy taken and used to supply the grid.
Strikes me as equivalent to the gasoline being siphoned from your ICE fuel tank for the greater good.

- The money Ford, GM & others have lost is truly lost. I get the concept of capital outlays in order to get a startup going. The machines and other factory equipment + labor must be paid for in advance of production. Then production profits kick in. A thing is EV sales have not kept up with the needed sales volume to make up the early production costs. Sales dropped after the taxpayer money incentives went away. Those up to $7,500 lumps of taxpayer money had kept the game going.

-The batteries in an EV do last years to be sure. However, there is a steady low percentage decline in overall function over time. This degradation has been inevitable and as the battery ages you will get among other things reduced range. Then eventually a very expensive battery replacement after some number of years. Been a year or so since I looked up public accessed chargers to find the nearest to me was over 50 miles away. Fast home charging requires a top level charger with potentially expensive electrical work required.

- You have it correct for non-home owners and pickup trucks.

- That the formulas for EV's needs to change fits well into the trend of computer development. it does appear the future of EV's means the current examples will become throwaway vehicles. Perhaps the way computer platforms rotate out of use every few years.

I will drop the EV side track if you do not mention them.
 

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GregO

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Cool idea but unlikely to make it into a mass produced ford engine.
GT3 5.4 is not really mass produced and it has titanium rods.
The M-Sport 5.4 Coyote based engine is spun past 9000 rpms.
 
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80FoxCoupe

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A complete supercharger system including heat exchangers adds about 150-200lbs to a vehicle… The hybrid system in the E-Ray adds about 200-300lbs so not a drastic difference… And there is definitely room to fit a ~15kwh battery pack and Ford had a patent not to long ago for dual electric motors mounted to the oil pan of a coyote…
I'll just leave this here...
1_MDA6578.webp
 

robvas

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There's got to be a picture of the MMR 5.4 or 5.5 stroker Coyote pistons out there
 

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