Whipple vs Procharger

[dirty-max]

Out of the dozens of cars running PC there have been no reported oil issues on the new kits, on the forums at least.

AFter talking with a couple people i am on the fence between PC and KB now.

Any reason for choosing the KB over the Whipple? If you don't mind me asking.

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[jayman33]

More efficient design and more power potential without having to run higher boost. Also, bit of personal pref and wanting to be different.

Eh, I'm really curious on the more efficient design of the KB over a whipple.

Right now, its hard to compare any supercharger head to head. Anyone of them are going to make you happy.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

These damn superchargers are so hard to choose from haha. All of them are amazing. I just want whatever one has the best reliability record.

 

[FreddyG]

Eh, I'm really curious on the more efficient design of the KB over a whipple.

Right now, its hard to compare any supercharger head to head. Anyone of them are going to make you happy.

I'm curious about this too because if I were to guess, I'd put the Whipple as a more efficient blower than the KB, but it's Very possible that you know something that I don't (that's not Very hard though ).

I also agree that any blower that fits the 2015 Mustang is going to put a smile on your face. :cheers:

 

[Grim_Reaper]

I'm curious about this too because if I were to guess, I'd put the Whipple as a more efficient blower than the KB, but it's Very possible that you know something that I don't (that's not Very hard though ).

I also agree that any blower that fits the 2015 Mustang is going to put a smile on your face. :cheers:

I don't know much either and admit that was just something some people had said and they could be wrong lol idk.

The one thing I have noticed is that it seems to take more boost to reach the same power levers on whipple than it does on ProCharger. That sound correct?

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Maybe thats the case with a bigger Centri that flows more on the top end?

So the HO kit made 600whp from MAK Perfomance on just 8psi, is seems like all the other whipple/roushe kits are having to use 11+psi to make same/similar power.

To me running less boost/strain on the motor would increase longevity and reliability.

 

[jayman33]

So the HO kit made 600whp from MAK Perfomance on just 8psi, is seems like all the other whipple/roushe kits are having to use 11+psi to make same/similar power.

To me running less boost/strain on the motor would increase longevity and reliability.

I personally don't think so.

We went 50k miles on our 11 stock block and about 75k miles with the Roush TVS with Stock block. Both making around 650hp.

With technology today, I wouldn't "stress" (pun intended) too much on that.

 

[Whipple SC]

These damn superchargers are so hard to choose from haha. All of them are amazing. I just want whatever one has the best reliability record.

Calibration wise, our cal is done by one of the foremost Ford Cal experts, not with aftermarket tools. There is a HUGE difference. I just spent 2 days racing 2 vehicles on a road course and drag strip this weekend. The manual making 713rwhp on 91 octane, auto making 642rwhp on 91 octane. Stock cats, only Borla cat-backs. We beat them like rental cars and not one single issue. No belt issues, no engine issues, no codes, failures or anything to report.

After about 10 laps, engine coolant temp and auto trans temp get near max and will start to limit power. Cat protection kicked on just a few times on the long straight at 140mph....Some turn this off, not a good idea on stock cat's. Because we have 58lb/hr injectors, we have enough fuel flow to do this, 47's do not..... Air temps were remarkable, the IAT2 temps stayed around 125deg F, IAT1 was hovering around 82F. Also note, we have IAT1 and IAT2 for temp differential to help control spark and torque control, something that can't be done with aftermarket tunes.

The difference in calibrations are significant. Also look into who actually has PD calibrations out? The centrifugal's are easier to tune because they keep the stock manifold and IMRC's. The calibration's on this new PCM is far more complexed and difficult. I can guarantee there is no current aftermarket tune that can shift as smooth, have safety parameters, make the power and do all the things these do with the stock or big TB's. There maybe in the future, but right now, there simply isn't one.

I don't want to bash KB, but half that info is incorrect. Rear feeds are not more efficient, just look at the inlets, which one has a massive pinch point? Which one has enough plenum volume for rotor filling? Which one has to make 180deg inlet? Any engineer or airflow expert would agree 100% longer intakes with more bends, pinch points and sharp turns will restrict airflow. It's also physically impossible to put the size intercooler we supply with the kit in a rear feed application and stay under the hood, especially if the SC height is tall (our 2.9L is lower profile then any comparable PD supercharger). The front feed pulley height is .75" lower than our rear feed, allowing .75" thicker intercooler. Then we also swooped the inlet down to clear the hood and added even more IC core volume and more volume above and below the IC.

Do the research and you will see all the differences. Bigger intercooler, bigger heat exchanger, optional fans, bigger SC, less inlet restrictions....

 

[dirty-max]

Only thing I have to ask is why do the manufactures use roots style blowers instead of centri units..I would think the main thing on the manufactures mind would be reliability and having to fulfill the 5 year 100k warranty or whatever it may be. Just my 2 cents so maybe they know something we don't?

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Calibration wise, our cal is done by one of the foremost Ford Cal experts, not with aftermarket tools. There is a HUGE difference. I just spent 2 days racing 2 vehicles on a road course and drag strip this weekend. The manual making 713rwhp on 91 octane, auto making 642rwhp on 91 octane. Stock cats, only Borla cat-backs. We beat them like rental cars and not one single issue. No belt issues, no engine issues, no codes, failures or anything to report.

After about 10 laps, engine coolant temp and auto trans temp get near max and will start to limit power. Cat protection kicked on just a few times on the long straight at 140mph....Some turn this off, not a good idea on stock cat's. Because we have 58lb/hr injectors, we have enough fuel flow to do this, 47's do not..... Air temps were remarkable, the IAT2 temps stayed around 125deg F, IAT1 was hovering around 82F. Also note, we have IAT1 and IAT2 for temp differential to help control spark and torque control, something that can't be done with aftermarket tunes.

The difference in calibrations are significant. Also look into who actually has PD calibrations out? The centrifugal's are easier to tune because they keep the stock manifold and IMRC's. The calibration's on this new PCM is far more complexed and difficult. I can guarantee there is no current aftermarket tune that can shift as smooth, have safety parameters, make the power and do all the things these do with the stock or big TB's. There maybe in the future, but right now, there simply isn't one.

I don't want to bash KB, but half that info is incorrect. Rear feeds are not more efficient, just look at the inlets, which one has a massive pinch point? Which one has enough plenum volume for rotor filling? Which one has to make 180deg inlet? Any engineer or airflow expert would agree 100% longer intakes with more bends, pinch points and sharp turns will restrict airflow. It's also physically impossible to put the size intercooler we supply with the kit in a rear feed application and stay under the hood, especially if the SC height is tall (our 2.9L is lower profile then any comparable PD supercharger). The front feed pulley height is .75" lower than our rear feed, allowing .75" thicker intercooler. Then we also swooped the inlet down to clear the hood and added even more IC core volume and more volume above and below the IC.

Do the research and you will see all the differences. Bigger intercooler, bigger heat exchanger, optional fans, bigger SC, less inlet restrictions....

Love the part about the rental cars haha. So true.

Is that 713rwhp on 91ACN? notice your location is Fresno. My car is currently at my dad's place just 45 min south of there and I live in Vegas so I have to deal with that crappy 91ACN as well. With that, I was also interested in running water/meth injection no matter what kit I get. Can you guys tune for that as well?

 

[Whipple SC]

So the HO kit made 600whp from MAK Perfomance on just 8psi, is seems like all the other whipple/roushe kits are having to use 11+psi to make same/similar power.

To me running less boost/strain on the motor would increase longevity and reliability.

The SC is just part of the equation. The biggest things to vary HP is:
1. Spark advance
2. Air fuel/Lambda
3. Temp (pre and post SC)
4. Cam position

Our production system is shipped at 650RWHP with our big TB, some have made 700-720RWHP as the PCM cal adjust timing based on many factors. That's with the same boost and pulley. We can easily make 600rwhp with 8psi by playing with the above. The question is, what's harder on the engine really? Everyone assumes boost is always the harder part but in reality, RPM is always the hardest. Many question, what makes more power, low boost, lean AF and aggressive timing or higher boost, richer AF and conservative timing? As long as temp's are controlled and the supercharger is not falling off, the higher boost wins.

I think the PC makes a great system and they get excellent results, but its not taking more boost to equal the power on these Mustang's.

 

[Whipple SC]

Love the part about the rental cars haha. So true.

Is that 713rwhp on 91ACN? notice your location is Fresno. My car is currently at my dad's place just 45 min south of there and I live in Vegas so I have to deal with that crappy 91ACN as well. With that, I was also interested in running water/meth injection no matter what kit I get. Can you guys tune for that as well?

In about a week to two, after some announcements are made, we will post some of the awesome video's of us playing, but I can tell you, we were running the same 91 octane you would be running since the testing was done in Vegas :cheers:

Our tunes are 100% pre-done, we don't customize the tune if its outside the packages we offer.

Currently we offer the standard cal's for 91-octane which auto adjust for 93-94 octane. Were finishing up a cal for bigger injectors as well as for long tubes. Water injection, with the stock pulley/power combo is simply not needed and won't increase power. They only increase when you can lean the air fuel and increase spark. Otherwise it actually loses HP because it lowers the BTU's in the combustion chamber.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

The SC is just part of the equation. The biggest things to vary HP is:
1. Spark advance
2. Air fuel/Lambda
3. Temp (pre and post SC)
4. Cam position

Our production system is shipped at 650RWHP with our big TB, some have made 700-720RWHP as the PCM cal adjust timing based on many factors. That's with the same boost and pulley. We can easily make 600rwhp with 8psi by playing with the above. The question is, what's harder on the engine really? Everyone assumes boost is always the harder part but in reality, RPM is always the hardest. Many question, what makes more power, low boost, lean AF and aggressive timing or higher boost, richer AF and conservative timing? As long as temp's are controlled and the supercharger is not falling off, the higher boost wins.

I think the PC makes a great system and they get excellent results, but its not taking more boost to equal the power on these Mustang's.

Great info! Thanks!

 

[Grim_Reaper]

In about a week to two, after some announcements are made, we will post some of the awesome video's of us playing, but I can tell you, we were running the same 91 octane you would be running since the testing was done in Vegas :cheers:

Our tunes are 100% pre-done, we don't customize the tune if its outside the packages we offer.

Currently we offer the standard cal's for 91-octane which auto adjust for 93-94 octane. Were finishing up a cal for bigger injectors as well as for long tubes. Water injection, with the stock pulley/power combo is simply not needed and won't increase power. They only increase when you can lean the air fuel and increase spark. Otherwise it actually loses HP because it lowers the BTU's in the combustion chamber.

Awesome info! So just to be clear the larger TB is needed to reach 650+whp?

Also the W/M Injection was more of a failsafe to combat the varying gas quality and to ensure it would never lean out/knock. You are saying that can potentially hurt my power gains? By how much? I am willing to lose a couple HP to keep the engine safe.

 

[Whipple SC]

Awesome info! So just to be clear the larger TB is needed to reach 650+whp?

Also the W/M Injection was more of a failsafe to combat the varying gas quality and to ensure it would never lean out/knock. You are saying that can potentially hurt my power gains? By how much? I am willing to lose a couple HP to keep the engine safe.

Yes, on 91-octane. Other than the cost, there is no other reason not to go with the bigger TB, it drives like its stock except when you want it.

The PCM is extremely advanced and detects and calculates the power the engine is making. When calibrated correctly, it will adjust accordingly. Because we use IAT1 and IAT2 and the vehicles have wide band air fuel sensors, knock sensors and MAF, the PCM will adjust and take the power away. Example, if you drove across country and started in Cali and went to NY, you could start at a nice 85deg F day. Go through some of the mid-west and you can get to -20deg F. The density change due to temp is so severe that if the motor could take it, would make another 100+hp just due to the temp. Issue is, the injectors, fuel pump, etc. would not have enough capacity to stay safe, therefore it will auto adjust to limit the power to keep fuel system in a safe zone. Therefore, you don't need extra fail safes, there already there.

W/M works best being sprayed at the port like the fuel injector but this is difficult to do in these motors. But in that situation, you could lose 20-30hp easily if spraying just a small amount in without changing tune to get more aggressive. The best option if you have to install it, is run it through the SC inlet, therefore cooling the aircharge during boost. This will not really change the tune, but can possibly lower IAT2 temp slightly and most of the water will evaporate as it goes through the SC. This will not get a big number like below the IC/SC, but is easier and can result in some noticeable gains.

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