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Supercharger Surge Help!

khsonic03

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So this popped up in my feed and I'm glad it did. I've been battling a low speed surge and startup/idle issues with my 3.0 whipple and had numerous tune updates to try to address it. My MAF readings were all over the place and surprisingly no one ever suggested that it could be my grille.

In all my wisdom, I thought that opening up my grill and designing a ram-air funnel/duct like the GT500 would help my supercharger breathe, but it appears I was wrong :) The GT500 is Speed Density, not MAF, so it's not impacted like our MAF cars are by this.

Needless to say, I'll be experimenting with creating an ABS shield to divert air with my new bumper.

Also, did some searching after reading this thread and found these images. Notice in the 2021 Shelby Super Snake, the grille is mostly blocked off for the snorkel (like factory grilles), wheras earlier models are wide open like the Whipple picture posted on the first page of this thread. Seems to me that Whipple & Shelby worked together to fix this issue and Shelby issued a revised grill for the Super Snake in 2021.

Last pic is my beautiful funneled intake on my new grill lol. Back to the drawing board.

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khsonic03

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I had surging at cruise speeds only and was told the same thing about my aftermarket grill. I have 2016 GT PP 6-spd with VMP Odin that I installed myself and I couldn't believe the surging issue was caused by my aftermarket MMD grill that I love and had on car for 4 years. I was actually told to block off the inlet with a towel just temporarily to see if the surge went away and it did. With my MMD grill you can reach in all the way and actually touch the air filter. I then tried partially blocking the inlet with tape and cardboard (for testing) even some black putty to block say 80% of the opening all to no avail and I eventually put my upper stock grill back on that I luckily had sitting in the garage which has fixed the surging at cruise speeds issue. Now is the tune perfect? Not yet. Let's just say I'm on my 7th tune revision and I might just pull the trigger get my car dyno tuned.



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Was thinking - looks like you tried blocking off the right side of the opening and leaving the left side straight through, which I think is the main problem. You want the air to go in and take a 90 degree turn. Wonder if you tried blocking off the left side and keeping 20%(ish) open on the right side how that would have worked out.

That's what I'm going to try with mine.
 

JLTH2183

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Was thinking - looks like you tried blocking off the right side of the opening and leaving the left side straight through, which I think is the main problem. You want the air to go in and take a 90 degree turn. Wonder if you tried blocking off the left side and keeping 20%(ish) open on the right side how that would have worked out.

That's what I'm going to try with mine.
I dont have a picture of it but I tried this moldable black putty that cures when heated and blocked 80% of the snorkel inlet and I still had the surging issue. I still have my upper MMD grill and may try modifing it or the snorkel inlet again in the furure.
 

Wengerd Performance

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We have ran into this before and see it in the log. Adding a piece of cardboard is a temporary fix and usually proves to you where the issue lies.

We already know what it is but for some reason customers don't always like to take the tuners word on it even though we see the data.

The Odins are the worst about it. When a aftermarket grill that is open in front of the filter it actually causes turbulence by the maf causing the surge.

The maf sits very close to the filter which makes it even worse.

The maf is a critical sensor in controlling fueling and the engine load the car uses for many internal tq calculations.

A unstable maf signal will cause surging.

We have had them on a dyno with open grills turned the fan on and they actually struggled to idle and surged badly.
 
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Wengerd Performance

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Is this a PD only thing?

I don't have any issues with my centri with the tune I have. My throttle inputs and drivability are perfect (knock on wood)!
Your centri will not have this issue as the maf is not located by the filter. It is located between the centri and the TB so it will not cause turbulence by the maf even if you ran no filter
 

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Burkey

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As a point of reference, my Edelbrock has the MAF located close to the filter. When the filter fell off, it ran like a box of hammers.

Now, having said that, I also have a Velossa Tech Big Mouth fitted to the car and it makes absolutely NO difference to how the car drives, regardless of which tune I run in it (PBD and Lund).

I would suggest that you might want to try sealing the open element filter area as best you can for two reasons:
1. If it isn’t sealing to the hood properly, you’re just sucking hot air through the intercooler.
2. If the air is able to flow THROUGH the area, this could create some decent turbulence at the MAF when compared to a sealed box (so to speak).

Food for thought.
 

Temovic55

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OP...any updates ?
Do you still have the drivability issue or is it gone ?
Thanx!
 

Semp1

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Hey guys,

My buddy who owns the same car as me a 2021 Mustang GT PP just got his VMP Odin installed. Making 704whp!!! However... hes having partial throttle surging issues. When he called his tuner, he said it's due to the RTR grille allowing too much air, which I find a little suspicious that a slightly more open grille is causing surge issues? Maybe I'm wrong, but is there a fix for this? He was told to put cardboard in the grille on go back to stock.

I'm also wondering if I will have the same issue putting a gen 5 whipple 3.0 stage 2 on my car as I have the Cervini C series upper and lower grille.

Thanks in advance!
I have the RTR grille with an Edelbrock 2650TVS and the 103mm throttlebody and edlebrock(air raid0 air box and make probably same or a little more than your friend RWHP and have no issue like that. the grille combined with VMP‘s design might just nor be the best combination.
 
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Temovic55

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I have the RTR grille and make probably same or a little more than your friend RWHP and have no issue like that. The tuner doesn’t wanna admit it might be the tune.
Hey Semp1,
Who's tuning your car ?
I can see it's an EB power adder! what size is that TB ?
 

beetle6986

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My car has this issue. It almost feels like the car is missing occasionally. I have the Roush Phase 2 with the California Special front grill. I see that the grill does have that section on the left mostly blocked with a small opening for air to go in. I can't tell if the issue is tune related or possibly the issue mentioned in this thread with the uneven air flow. I'm going to put some cardboard behind the grill to see if it makes a difference. The tuner indicated that he doesn't see anything in the logs. I have the C-series grill that I haven't installed yet. Sounds like that could possibly be an issue also.

FYI for those that showed a picture of the supersnake front end.... My dad drove his friends 2021 supersnake recently and he said the car did the same thing. Felt like it was missing slightly when cruising.
 

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Semp1

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Hey Semp1,
Who's tuning your car ?
I can see it's an EB power adder! what size is that TB ?
My car is tuned by Jim D’Amore at JDM Engineering. There is no better imho. look Them up. My. TB is the 103mm stage 2 TB. That EB makes. And hat was a huge pain to tune for.
 

Temovic55

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My car is tuned by Jim D’Amore at JDM Engineering. There is no better imho. look Them up. My. TB is the 103mm stage 2 TB. That EB makes. And hat was a huge pain to tune for.
I get it,
Probably will go with Ortiz and see if he could do it without involving the grille dilemma.
 

Temovic55

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Multiple people have reported having to have the odin TB replaced more than once before they got a working one.
May have nothing to do with the tune or MAF signal at all..
I totally agree!
Give me a healthy TB and let the Custom tune does the rest
 

carguy231

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My 2018 stage 2 whipple does this sometimes as well. I think its a combo of the gigantic throttlebody and my foot bouncing the pedal. Although every now and then i get a strange part throttle break up during the first drive after a number of hours (cold engine) i always let the motor warm up to about 120-140 minimum before i drive though.
The same issue with my 2017 with the Edelbrock Stage 2 with the 103mm TB. First cold start it wants to stall; until warmed up idle can be erratic, as at the first the redlight/stopsign. No issues when warm.
 

carguy231

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As a point of reference, my Edelbrock has the MAF located close to the filter. When the filter fell off, it ran like a box of hammers.

Now, having said that, I also have a Velossa Tech Big Mouth fitted to the car and it makes absolutely NO difference to how the car drives, regardless of which tune I run in it (PBD and Lund).

I would suggest that you might want to try sealing the open element filter area as best you can for two reasons:
1. If it isn’t sealing to the hood properly, you’re just sucking hot air through the intercooler.
2. If the air is able to flow THROUGH the area, this could create some decent turbulence at the MAF when compared to a sealed box (so to speak).

Food for thought.
Same exact thing here on my 2017. The EB came with an AirRaid CAI and I have the Velossa big mouth too. The weird thing is that the problem manifested after 800 miles [maybe when the filter fell off]. Cleaned, then replaced the MAF. No change. Replaced the big TB. No change. Spent a lot of time on the phone with Edelbrock's Tony A doing datalogging and still no change. I wonder if one of those dust covers on the filter would help.
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