Supercharger Cost Question

[engineermike]

I looked at the economics a bit differently. Having owned 6 factory turbo/supercharged vehicles and also 6 aftermarket turbo/supercharged vehicles, I will never believe that aftermarket FI can come even close to the reliability and dependability of OEM systems. So why do I supercharge my 2018 then? Because I have $45k total invested and a gt500 is $75k. Sure I would rather a gt500, but I can’t justify the $30k adder with my personal economic situation and goals.

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[coz0502]

Chris, in re-reading your original post, I realize I haven't really properly addressed the questions you have asked.

The cost breakdown you are asking can't be answered by any of us unless we are privvy to exactly the manufacturing costs, commissions, etc from manufactureres like Whipple or Procharger. It is my understanding all, or nearly all the components of these blowers are manufactured in the U.S. However the long delay Whipple had this summer makes me wonder if their raw materials (aluminum, steel, plastic components) are made elsewhere like China, Mexico, etc. I know the Corona thing seriously delayed the shipment of steel from China and made it nearly impossible to find a new car hauler earlier this year where most assemblers get their raw materials.

In examining the parts I have received and the shipping from both Whipple and Procharger it is my assumption that there is not that much profit in these things. Many, many parts of precision fitment and there must be a ton of R&D, patent costs on top of the manufacturing.

I have had 5 supercharged Mustangs. I put all of them on myself or had it done professionally. All except one I sold for more than I paid for the car itself. Yes, I lost money but perhaps 5-7K and drove them for 1-3 years and put 7-30K miles on each. It is entertainment for me, but getting the car itself for the right price makes it a rather cheap form of entertainment and lots of fun!

The fun factor of driving a car with nearly twice the power it was originally made for and the tire burnings at 50-60-70 miles an hour changes the car to what most of these youngsters call a "beast". It also becomes more and more addictive to make it faster and faster, better traction, reduce wheel hop, and on and on.

I am in the camp that I will do either a tune only or a blower only for power. Done with headers, loud exhaust (unless stock as in the case of the newer Mustangs with Active Exhaust which is awesome).

As far as price, expect to get more for your car with a blower but not more than about 1/2 the price back. More serious mods or exhaust hurts sales in my experience.

Remember that once you supercharge it, many of the rest of the supporting parts are now inadequate to deal with the power. And, as you firm up suspension parts you increase NVH. There is a reason the GT500 costs twice the price of a Premium Mustang GT.

Wow this is a well thought out reply, thanks! This is how my brain works too, which is why I posed the questions. I was just curious what others thought or if someone had 1st hand knowledge and wanted to share.

I'm leaning towards what you stated "In examining the parts I have received and the shipping from both Whipple and Procharger it is my assumption that there is not that much profit in these things. Many, many parts of precision fitment and there must be a ton of R&D, patent costs on top of the manufacturing."

There may be a small premium put on the part, but I bet most of the cost is due to the precise fitment and materials required.

 

[engineermike]

One other often-overlooked thing when talking cost is the calibration. The oem spends huge sums of money perfecting the “tune” with a team of engineers and specialists, simulation programs, and a bank of dynos running 24/7. If you look at the calibration of, say, a stock 5.0 engine it is absolutely optimized and clear that a great deal of effort went into it. Conversely, if you look at any aftermarket supercharged calibration (even 3rd party), it’s clear that orders of magnitude less time and effort went into them. To most, the difference is either unnoticeable or not significant, but the oem would never let one out the door like that. However, if we wanted an oem-quality calibration we would probably have to be willing to pay double for the kits and I just don’t know anyone willing to do that.

 

[coz0502]

I looked at the economics a bit differently. Having owned 6 factory turbo/supercharged vehicles and also 6 aftermarket turbo/supercharged vehicles, I will never believe that aftermarket FI can come even close to the reliability and dependability of OEM systems. So why do I supercharge my 2018 then? Because I have $45k total invested and a gt500 is $75k. Sure I would rather a gt500, but I can’t justify the $30k adder with my personal economic situation and goals.

We're on the same page. I feel the same way, plus starting with a GT and adding FI allows you to make it your car instead of a factory upgrade that anyone can buy.

I mentioned it early, in my situation of this being my daily and having almost 70k miles on it, if I ever do add FI, it will be after it's paid off and becomes my fun car. Where I can take the time to do it right so it doesn't blow up on me.

I've actually been looking for a small beater pickup that I can use for trips to Lowe's, throw the mountain bike in the bed instead of pulling the wheels off and cramming in the mustang. Something I can park as close to where I'm going and not care about door dings, keeping it pristine, etc.

 

[brucelinc]

My goal was to have a nice fully loaded Mustang GT that had straight line acceleration competitive with stock Hellcats, ZL1s and GT 500s.....but at a much lower cost. Also having some powertrain warranty for a period of time was somewhat important in case there were any flaws that the extra power would find.

Additionally, I like to keep things simple. I really didn't want the hassle and extra expense of custom tuning or upgrading OPGs/CS. Just as important, I wanted drivability and overall behavior to be as smooth as stock with no bad behavior. I didn't want the SC to be heard, smelled, tasted or felt under normal driving conditions.

With the cost of my 401A GT plus around $8,400 for the installed kit, my goals were achieved.

 

[WhinRR]

One other often-overlooked thing when talking cost is the calibration. The oem spends huge sums of money perfecting the “tune” with a team of engineers and specialists, simulation programs, and a bank of dynos running 24/7. If you look at the calibration of, say, a stock 5.0 engine it is absolutely optimized and clear that a great deal of effort went into it. Conversely, if you look at any aftermarket supercharged calibration (even 3rd party), it’s clear that orders of magnitude less time and effort went into them. To most, the difference is either unnoticeable or not significant, but the oem would never let one out the door like that. However, if we wanted an oem-quality calibration we would probably have to be willing to pay double for the kits and I just don’t know anyone willing to do that.

I think its not only it is less time but also different point of views. An OEM tune is built primarily for longevity of parts and not top end performance. Performance tunes are more geared at optimizing for max performance within "safe parameters"

 

[engineermike]

@WhinRR that’s not what I’m referring to at all. There are numerous examples but here is one: the stock 5.0 calibration has 26 mapped points fully defined. Roush sc has 6 IIRC. That’s not going to make roush faster and stock safer. It just adds a ton of resolution to the stock file so that the speed density, torque, and spark models are more accurate. Roush gives up all this resolution, probably because it takes a huge amount of time to calibrate all the mapped points and the returns are diminishing.

 

[brucelinc]

@WhinRR that’s not what I’m referring to at all. There are numerous examples but here is one: the stock 5.0 calibration has 26 mapped points fully defined. Roush sc has 6 IIRC. That’s not going to make roush faster and stock safer. It just adds a ton of resolution to the stock file so that the speed density, torque, and spark models are more accurate. Roush gives up all this resolution, probably because it takes a huge amount of time to calibrate all the mapped points and the returns are diminishing.

I have no doubt that you are correct. However, the overall driving characteristics of the latest Roush calibration mimics stock so incredibly close that one would be very hard pressed to tell the difference until the increased power from the boost is felt. I don't know from experience but I am told the Whipple tune is also very friendly. Edelbrock has a reputation for very noticeable drivability issues, though.

 

[engineermike]

@brucelinc I felt the same way after driving the Whipple cal for 20k miles. However, once I started logging data and “seeing what I couldn’t feel” it was surprising how far off things were. The operating strategy of the pcm is fantastic and does a great job of covering up calibration errors, but when you see it adding 5 of spark advance at part throttle and hitting the knock advance limit, you were deprived of 5+ deg of timing advance for 2+ seconds while it catches up. In some places I’ve added up to 10 deg of timing and still no knock, which results in better response and fuel economy at no cost. It was only then that I realized what I was missing before and didn’t know it.

 

[Torinate]

@brucelinc I felt the same way after driving the Whipple cal for 20k miles. However, once I started logging data and “seeing what I couldn’t feel” it was surprising how far off things were. The operating strategy of the pcm is fantastic and does a great job of covering up calibration errors, but when you see it adding 5 of spark advance at part throttle and hitting the knock advance limit, you were deprived of 5+ deg of timing advance for 2+ seconds while it catches up. In some places I’ve added up to 10 deg of timing and still no knock, which results in better response and fuel economy at no cost. It was only then that I realized what I was missing before and didn’t know it.

Your answers always amaze me. I’d love to pick your brain and learn to self tune as well.
Thanks for you input on this forum.

 

[brucelinc]

We have a guy here in Minneapolis who is supposed to be a wizard with HP tuner software and he specializes in forced Induction applications. I might work with him at some point.

 

[jag7885]

Interesting question! When it comes to this hobby, we're all putting money into a depreciating asset. So from a purely financial perspective it doesn't make much sense. This can apply to most hobbies, we don't really get into them to make money, but to enjoy the experience.

I recently had a Procharger installed on my '17 GT. The initial cost of the supercharger can be daunting, especially when you include all the supporting modifications. Plus there will be additional wear and tear. The car was plenty of fun and had a lot of power even in stock form, but the curiosity of the blower eventually led me to go down that road. The power is unreal! No regrets!

 

[GeorgeC]

Well I've thought it over and over and I'm I'm gonna stay na. I don't have the cash and let's face it if you want to play you have to pay. After the warranty is over I'll speak to my financial advisor and see if I have the bucks for a lkq motor if so fi if not na headers a tune and e85

 

[GreenS550]

I can't remember your model year or transmission. If you have a stick and it's an 18 or later just swap the gears in the axle for say 409 or even bigger. It will completely change your car

 

[WhinRR]

I can't remember your model year or transmission. If you have a stick and it's an 18 or later just swap the gears in the axle for say 409 or even bigger. It will completely change your car

I haven’t really been in a higher geared coyote but what would this do to highway driving? I know in fox body days that meant highway speeds at 4K

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