Stock Rod Limit

[mbreinin]

The knock sensor signal processing probably wasn't set at Ford for that kind of load on the engine, meaning it could be too sensitive or not sensitive enough ie it's useless under those conditions and OP can't be faulted for turning it off or ignoring it, or not seeing any knock from it.



Spark timing is not combustion phasing. The timing doesn't tell you how fast the mixture is burning. You can keep the timing at -4 degrees and still have more advanced combustion if the combustion speeds up for whatever reason. You can't tell that without cylinder pressure indication. Only Ford and its development partners have cylinder pressure indication equipment and engines tapped for indication probes.

Well, if he was on MS109 (he said MS101, but that is not an actual fuel as far as I know, unless it is new. There used to be VP101), it is heavily oxygenated and runs lean and burns fast. Livernois ran MS109 in their 11 second glory run.

Mike

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[sj90]

My post got buried at the end of last page but it explains it partly.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=479229&postcount=144




The torque you measure is the result of losses. On an engine dyno it's simpler because there are no drivetrain losses.

I take the torque generated by combustion, subtract the torque wasted on pumping air in and out of the cylinder, and subtract parasitic losses (friction).

When the pumping losses decrease through say a larger turbine hotside, I need less combustion work to make torque. Less combustion work means less peak cylinder pressures, generally speaking.

I'm explaining this in words because it is easier to follow for most people than equations.

Thanks! Yeah I think I started my post before yours was up, I just took along time to post it.

The loss of pumping air out is what I meant with loss due to back pressure, I just wasn't sure if that would be a large amount.

So would it be fair to say it has mostly to do with extra losses from the turbo working harder? Does the extra exhaust gas left in the cylinder due to higher back pressure have any effect on it?

 

[arghx7]

Thanks! Yeah I think I started my post before yours was up, I just took along time to post it.

The loss of pumping air out is what I meant with loss due to back pressure, I just wasn't sure if that would be a large amount.

So would it be fair to say it has mostly to do with extra losses from the turbo working harder? Does the extra exhaust gas left in the cylinder due to higher back pressure have any effect on it?

If it's bad enough it can have a huge effect. Twin scroll turbos are worse for backpressure in general too, but they spool a lot better. Somebody would have to install pressure sensors in the turbo scrolls at the very minimum to see what the turbine inlet pressures are.

Residual gases are good for certain types of fuel economy and emissions situations but when making torque and power, it's bad. It's associated with more pumping work, higher tendency to knock, that kind of thing.

 

[fusion13]

Like was said by several people shifting your power further to the right (larger turbo) will take some of the strain off a lot of the drivetrain and bottom end. The way ford has designed the ecoboost is to have massive low end torque and as little turbo lag as possible and they accomplish this by a smaller integrated manifold and a very small, well matched turbo. With proper tuning and a well-designed upgrading path I think you will begin to see the stock internals can handle quite a bit for a stock engine. Look back at the MZR (the ecoboosts older cousin) it was nick named the zoom, zoom, boom because of its earlier years with improper tuning and the lack of fueling also due to the HPFP. They have since resolved a lot of their issues and have found out how to tune the cars reliably and a proper upgrade path to take. I think everyone needs to step back and take a breath this can actually be a good thing I think that proper cooling and fueling need to be taken into consideration. The stock FMIC is just not up to the task it has not been on other ecoboost and it appears the same with the 2.3 and if the car does not have enough air flow thru it on the dyno this creates some bad scenarios (a handful of 2.0l have popped on or shortly after the dyno because of this) especially with limited fueling. Also WMI has saved many engines helping to cool cylinder temps and helping with the fueling. I also how much of a fueling bump you will get from an upgraded HPFP I wonder if it would be better to bypass that all together and go with a hybrid port injection system for extra fueling to maintain a good low end driving characteristics but have plenty of fuel up top for whatever turbo your engine can handle..

 

[LeonBorden]

Outside of the aforementioned detonation etc, torque breaks rods. So after finding he torque breaking point, which keep in mind, we haven't necessarily found that yet... The goal is to shift the power band right. This is where Geoff and the others have been saying to go with a larger turbo. Small turbo = hot air + low end torque with no top end.

 

[Juben]

Outside of the aforementioned detonation etc, torque breaks rods. So after finding he torque breaking point, which keep in mind, we haven't necessarily found that yet... The goal is to shift the power band right. This is where Geoff and the others have been saying to go with a larger turbo. Small turbo = hot air + low end torque with no top end.

Small turbo = crappy time
Big turbo = glorious

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[Full-Race Geoff]

The only thing I can really think of is less back pressure from the turbo...lower the cylinder pressure because more exhaust gas can escape during the exhaust stroke? ...I know lower peak cylinder pressure helps avoid detonation, but that would be assuming that is what actually killed the engine, not just over stressing it.

you have a good understanding - there is no question that "over-stressing" an engine will cause a failure like this. pistons/rods only see cyl pressure vs time. so if cyl pressure spikes early, the pistons and rods do not transfer all of that energy into crankshaft rotation... like they would if the cyl pressure was higher, later.

So 420 lb/ft of torque on a stock turbo makes the engine work harder than 420 lb/ft of torque on a larger turbo. Race fuel may reduce knock but it gives a false sense of security if you advance combustion to the point of exceeding rated cylinder pressures.

Give this man a beer :cheers:

Twin scroll turbos are worse for backpressure in general too, but they spool a lot better. Somebody would have to install pressure sensors in the turbo scrolls at the very minimum to see what the turbine inlet pressures are. Residual gases are good for certain types of fuel economy and emissions situations but when making torque and power, it's bad. It's associated with more pumping work, higher tendency to knock

the key is to use a bigger twinscroll turbo

this is the only info Im allowed to share from Ford's initial prototype 2.3L ecoboost prototype testing for us, maybe you guys will find it interesting:

http://www.docdroid.net/c6j6/fr-singlescroll-vs-twinscroll.pdf.html

You wont be able to go E85 unless the high pressure fuel supply issue is resolved so a larger turbo capable of more boost and power is a waste unless there is more available fueling.

we are working on it! :ford:

 

[dragonacc]

Cool info Geoff. Thanks for sharing.

 

[limequat]

this is the only info Im allowed to share from Ford's initial prototype 2.3L ecoboost prototype testing for us, maybe you guys will find it interesting:

http://www.docdroid.net/c6j6/fr-singlescroll-vs-twinscroll.pdf.html



we are working on it! :ford:

That explains the earlier statements about Full Race developing an exhaust manifold.

I couldn't have been the only one wondering how a company could build a 500 hp EB and not realize the the exhaust manifold was integrated in the head.

lollerskates

 

[Anthony@HTM]

Man this just turned into a pretty sweet thread!

 

[BGolden]

First off let me thank everyone for their interest in this thread.

Before we go any further I would ask that this thread is not turned into a thread about which software is best and who has gone faster on what software. I would also ask that we don't claim the motor blew due to detonation when you have no first hand experience in what was going on that day with the tune and on the dyno.

If you would like to have a conversation about the limits of this motor and how to advance them then that would be great. Please check your motives at the door and lets improve this EB motor.

I will state it again, I knew I was pushing it to the limit of the motor as I wanted to go 11's with full interior and full exhaust on stock motor and stock turbo. Exactly how it would be driven down the road plus drag radials.

 

[greg hazlett]

Man this just turned into a pretty sweet thread!

Except for RIP which turns into Rest in Peace ecoboost motor...:(

 

[BGolden]

Except for RIP which turns into Rest in Peace ecoboost motor...:(

Na it turns into more HP and fun EB motor.

 

[Billy1]

First off let me thank everyone for their interest in this thread.

Before we go any further I would ask that this thread is not turned into a thread about which software is best and who has gone faster on what software. I would also ask that we don't claim the motor blew due to detonation when you have no first hand experience in what was going on that day with the tune and on the dyno.

If you would like to have a conversation about the limits of this motor and how to advance them then that would be great. Please check your motives at the door and lets improve this EB motor.

I will state it again, I knew I was pushing it to the limit of the motor as I wanted to go 11's with full interior and full exhaust on stock motor and stock turbo. Exactly how it would be driven down the road plus drag radials.

B, thanks for advancing this thread, but we still want to know what happened to cause the rod to let go. Nobody is pointing fingers or judging you. When are you going to do a quantitative teardown of the engine to find out what exactly went wrong, so that no one else repeats this episode.

 

[Biffosaur]

B, thanks for advancing this thread, but we still want to know what happened to cause the rod to let go. Nobody is pointing fingers or judging you. When are you going to do a quantitative teardown of the engine to find out what exactly went wrong, so that no one else repeats this episode.

As much as I trust JJ, I would love confirmation of this.:cheers:

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