hlh1
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Anyone know the impedance of the rear deck speakers on my 17 GT Premium 9 speaker system? thanks!
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Equinsu Ocha
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4 ohm.
hlh1
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Thank you!
RubberyDuck
Active Member
Ok. So I've read this thread, and many others on Mustang6g. Firstly, a huge thank you to all contributors. This site is easily the best, most dedicated and supportive forum I've encountered.
So, I'm looking for a sense check on my plans for my Mustang audio, and would appreciate any thoughts you may have.
I have an EU spec (does that make a difference?), with the "12" speaker Shaker Pro. I'm not really looking to "take it to the max", what I'm looking for is quality at reasonable volumes. I'm not the window shaking youth I used to be.
My plan is as follows;
1) Reuse the existing amps (which as far as I can tell are more than capable of producing the volume I desire)
2) Replace the front door speakers with this kit. Wiring each crossover into the existing source wiring for each speaker (wiring the tweeter crossover in BEFORE the pseudo-crossover that comes standard). https://www.audison.eu/products/apk-163/
3) Replace the rear shelf speakers with these: https://www.audison.eu/products/apx-6-5/
4) Replace the subwoofer with this: https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/ts-sw2002d2
Now, everything I've read suggests my OEM speakers are 2ohm, perhaps with the exception of the tweeters. I'm not convinced the EU spec will be the same, as 2ohm speakers are very rare here in the UK. However, even if I am replacing 2ohm with 4 ohm, I don't believe it should be an issue, as the volume drop shouldn't be significant enough to cause problems. The crossovers also have a +2db adjustment, which I will activate for the door woofers and rear shelf speakers if the tweeters are too bright (assuming they alone were already 4ohm and therefore do not suffer a drop along with the rest). I will test the stock speakers with a multimeter to understand their rating prior to the change. For the subwoofer, I have the option of wiring in such a way that will achieve either a 2ohm or 4ohm impedance. I am considering going with 2ohm, even with the rest of the speakers being 4ohm, to give the bass a bit of a boost in the back. I'd rather the sub provided the majority of the oomph, saving the cabin vibration a little. If the sub is too aggressive in this configuration I will wire one of these in line: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B076DBCGB5/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A29IYBEH1VBRQS&psc=1
Now, I'm aware that ohms isn't everything, but I am expecting quality to be covered by the speakers v.s. the paper coned nonsense I'm replacing. What I am concerned about is the levels. I know Ford did some tuning to the signals that come out of the head unit, and I know I can disable that using ForScan. The question is, with everything configured as above, and without a desire to use my own AMP/DSP, do I need to? Will I have issues?
I fully intend to disable the cabin sounds/ANC, either using ForScan or by cutting the wiring from the head unit to the amp. Advice as to which is preferred?
With regards to the sub box, is it worth me lining it with some wadding? I have heard that can have positive effects on the scale of the bass production. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0089V4H9M/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2XYDT94KJEBH6&psc=1
I think that's all my questions. I leave it to the experts to tell me if I've understood everything I've read.
So, I'm looking for a sense check on my plans for my Mustang audio, and would appreciate any thoughts you may have.
I have an EU spec (does that make a difference?), with the "12" speaker Shaker Pro. I'm not really looking to "take it to the max", what I'm looking for is quality at reasonable volumes. I'm not the window shaking youth I used to be.
My plan is as follows;
1) Reuse the existing amps (which as far as I can tell are more than capable of producing the volume I desire)
2) Replace the front door speakers with this kit. Wiring each crossover into the existing source wiring for each speaker (wiring the tweeter crossover in BEFORE the pseudo-crossover that comes standard). https://www.audison.eu/products/apk-163/
3) Replace the rear shelf speakers with these: https://www.audison.eu/products/apx-6-5/
4) Replace the subwoofer with this: https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/ts-sw2002d2
Now, everything I've read suggests my OEM speakers are 2ohm, perhaps with the exception of the tweeters. I'm not convinced the EU spec will be the same, as 2ohm speakers are very rare here in the UK. However, even if I am replacing 2ohm with 4 ohm, I don't believe it should be an issue, as the volume drop shouldn't be significant enough to cause problems. The crossovers also have a +2db adjustment, which I will activate for the door woofers and rear shelf speakers if the tweeters are too bright (assuming they alone were already 4ohm and therefore do not suffer a drop along with the rest). I will test the stock speakers with a multimeter to understand their rating prior to the change. For the subwoofer, I have the option of wiring in such a way that will achieve either a 2ohm or 4ohm impedance. I am considering going with 2ohm, even with the rest of the speakers being 4ohm, to give the bass a bit of a boost in the back. I'd rather the sub provided the majority of the oomph, saving the cabin vibration a little. If the sub is too aggressive in this configuration I will wire one of these in line: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B076DBCGB5/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A29IYBEH1VBRQS&psc=1
Now, I'm aware that ohms isn't everything, but I am expecting quality to be covered by the speakers v.s. the paper coned nonsense I'm replacing. What I am concerned about is the levels. I know Ford did some tuning to the signals that come out of the head unit, and I know I can disable that using ForScan. The question is, with everything configured as above, and without a desire to use my own AMP/DSP, do I need to? Will I have issues?
I fully intend to disable the cabin sounds/ANC, either using ForScan or by cutting the wiring from the head unit to the amp. Advice as to which is preferred?
With regards to the sub box, is it worth me lining it with some wadding? I have heard that can have positive effects on the scale of the bass production. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0089V4H9M/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2XYDT94KJEBH6&psc=1
I think that's all my questions. I leave it to the experts to tell me if I've understood everything I've read.
Emilbadal
Well-Known Member
My only suggestion is that don't go overboard with speakers if you're not putting an aftermarket headunit like kenwood or alpine in. Those great speakers will only play as good of a signal they receive. Our mustangs have mediocre at best headunits and putting super expensive speakers not only won't make it sound better it might even emphasize the inherent noise in its system more pronounced. This past weekend I sat in my brother's GT350. His car is bone stock. I was shocked how much unwanted noise(hissing , buzzing, etc.) came through his speakers without playing anything at volume 0. So I'm now pretty convinced that the headunit is NOT of high quality and well shielded. I'm still going to try to eliminate the noise in my car but after hearing what stock GT350 sounded like, I don't have much hope to find a solution.His GT350 has the 9 speaker Shaker without the subwoofer. It's so disappointing! The Audison speakers that you listed are really good speakers, Try to stay in 85-90db sensitivity range, that way maybe you would hear the hissings and buzzings less. The ones that you posted are 93.5db which are pretty sensitive speakers which means they will sound louder than your factory speakers but at the same time those noises are going to be more pronounced.
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RubberyDuck
Active Member
Not a problem I had considered, nor one I’ve encountered before. Worrying. Has anyone else experience this with the stock head unit?
Cathul
Well-Known Member
No... maybe with a base system where the ACM is putting out high level signals, but if you add an amplifier you want to reprogram this to variable line output anyway and then the hiss is just a matter of correct gain settings.
Btw. when programmed for variable line output and flat eq the headunit is one of the best sounding units with no clipping up to full volume.
Do aftermarket headunits have more features? For sure! Do they sound better? Not necessarily as there are far more conditions that play into the resulting sound of the system (amp, speakers, gain settings, DSP yes/no....). Do they look better? For sure not, as all the available kits look like shit when compared to the stock system.
RubberyDuck
Active Member
Oh agreed. I have absolutely no intention of changing heat unit. There just aren’t any good options, plus the camera/navigation is a challenge. Not insurmountable, but make
It harder.
You mention setting the outputs from the head unit to stock. Should I be doing that based on my setup?
Any views on my other questions in my original post?
Cathul
Well-Known Member
I mentioned that when you have the base system, i.e. no stock amplifier, and you want (and you definitely should) to add an aftermarket amp, you should reprogram the headunit to deliver variable line level instead of the variable high level. With high level output the headunit starts to clip at around 20 on the volume dial, with line level output there is no clipping up to the max on the volume dial. If you're just adding speakers this is out of the question as you need the high-level output then.
Whatever, you always want to set the EQ to flat if using aftermarket amp/speakers. Ideally you're using some kind of DSP with the aftermarket amp, either integrated in the amp or stand alone. There are units that are really affordable and you can always buy used stuff to save some money.
Even if not running the aftermarket speakers active you still benefit from the DSP by using the EQ capabilities and basic time alignment for left/right channel and have the option to upgrade to full active later.
Whatever, you always want to set the EQ to flat if using aftermarket amp/speakers. Ideally you're using some kind of DSP with the aftermarket amp, either integrated in the amp or stand alone. There are units that are really affordable and you can always buy used stuff to save some money.
Even if not running the aftermarket speakers active you still benefit from the DSP by using the EQ capabilities and basic time alignment for left/right channel and have the option to upgrade to full active later.
RubberyDuck
Active Member
Thanks for that. I have to admit, I was hoping not to add amps/dsps, as the existing system gets plenty loud enough for me. It's just too muddy for my tastes. I want to add some clarity and some quality. I'm also not sure I understand high level output v.s. line level outputs. What do you mean by "clipping"? This will be my first audio upgrade without replacing the head unit at the same time, so these complications are new to me...
Does this also mean that if I did want to fit an aftermarket amp to the subwoofer I would need to convert the high level output to line level somehow?
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Cathul
Well-Known Member
Muddy sound is often caused by the speakers and damping of the surround of the speakers. Sometimes the cause can also be clipping, which is distortion, which is most often caused by the amp not being able to deliver clean power to the speakers at higher volume levels. Thats why you want to add aftermarket amps. They don't need to be expensive, but should be quality amps. High level is put out by the amplifiers, i.e. an amplified signal with a level typically higher than 4 Volts. Line level is unamplified signal, which has to be amplified to be able to drive speakers.
In regards to clipping... Clipping, as said above, is basically distortion. Soundwaves look like sine waves with different wavelengths depending on the frequency. When clipping occurs the upper and lower waves of the signal are basically cut off and look square instead of smooth. I cannot really explain it better, but when you google "clipping" you get tons of information.
Basically you want your system to be able to reproduce music without clipping at your desired volume. Most often the stock systems, especially if no amplifier of any sort is used, cannot deliver more than 10-15 Watts to each channel. So even a cheap quality amp with 4x50 Watts RMS deliver 4x more power to your speakers without introducing distortion.
But always remember, this is only true if you don't introduce distortion at the source, i.e the headunits output. Therefor you reprogram your headunit to deliver a line level signal (usually up to 4Volts) on it's output instead of an amplified signal on it's output as the latter most often starts to be distorted even at moderate settings on the volume knob.
Setting the headunit to line level output and adding an inexpensive, but quality aftermarket amp enables your system to reproduce a clean signal at the same volume settings.
You don't have to go crazy expensive for that as even quality, but inexpensive stuff will be way better than the current system. A DSP would be the icing on the cake as you can do stuff with it that is not possible without, most important the equalizing/leveling and time alignment of left/right channel.
So you might ask "why am i disabling the EQ on the headunit by programming to equalize afterwards?". The answer is simple.
The stock EQ is set for the base speakers in your system and won't fit the aftermarket speakers.
So you feed a flat signal without distortion to the DSP and then you measure the finished system after setting gains and lower the peaks in the frequency response to match a so called target curve (google that, very interesting read). This makes your system to reproduce any frequency equally loud.
In addition with a DSP you can account for level differences from left and right speakers. Basically as you sit nearer to the left speakers they will be louder than the right speakers as the energy of the sound waves gets lower the farther away you sit from the speaker. Without being able to level this out you will always feel that the sound is coming more from the left speakers instead from the middle of both sides (this is an important part of staging).
Another benefit of a DSP is the time alignment of individual speakers (if going active) or left/right side. As with the leveling of left and right sitting nearer the left side means that the sound waves from the left reach your ear way before the sound waves from the right speakers. With adding a delay to the left side you can achieve that both sound waves reach your ears at the exact same time (this is another important part of staging).
But don't go crazy on this one. If your budget doesn't fit a DSP now you can always add one later.
To sum this up... a good and cheap 4 channel amp (you want to run your rear speakers of the aftermarket amp, too) with sufficient power can be had for as low as 110,-- $ from brands like Kenwood, Pioneer and others. Sure, more money will buy you more quality and power, but even the cheap amps will be better than the power from your headunit.
In addition to the amp you need power wires, speaker wires, a fuse box at the battery and wire ferules/looms. Add another 30-40 $ and you should be good to go on this.
The cheapest 4 channel amp with DSP is around 200,-- $ and comes from Kicker. It's not a high end DSP in that amp, but it gives you basic time alignment and equalizing.
In regards to clipping... Clipping, as said above, is basically distortion. Soundwaves look like sine waves with different wavelengths depending on the frequency. When clipping occurs the upper and lower waves of the signal are basically cut off and look square instead of smooth. I cannot really explain it better, but when you google "clipping" you get tons of information.
Basically you want your system to be able to reproduce music without clipping at your desired volume. Most often the stock systems, especially if no amplifier of any sort is used, cannot deliver more than 10-15 Watts to each channel. So even a cheap quality amp with 4x50 Watts RMS deliver 4x more power to your speakers without introducing distortion.
But always remember, this is only true if you don't introduce distortion at the source, i.e the headunits output. Therefor you reprogram your headunit to deliver a line level signal (usually up to 4Volts) on it's output instead of an amplified signal on it's output as the latter most often starts to be distorted even at moderate settings on the volume knob.
Setting the headunit to line level output and adding an inexpensive, but quality aftermarket amp enables your system to reproduce a clean signal at the same volume settings.
You don't have to go crazy expensive for that as even quality, but inexpensive stuff will be way better than the current system. A DSP would be the icing on the cake as you can do stuff with it that is not possible without, most important the equalizing/leveling and time alignment of left/right channel.
So you might ask "why am i disabling the EQ on the headunit by programming to equalize afterwards?". The answer is simple.
The stock EQ is set for the base speakers in your system and won't fit the aftermarket speakers.
So you feed a flat signal without distortion to the DSP and then you measure the finished system after setting gains and lower the peaks in the frequency response to match a so called target curve (google that, very interesting read). This makes your system to reproduce any frequency equally loud.
In addition with a DSP you can account for level differences from left and right speakers. Basically as you sit nearer to the left speakers they will be louder than the right speakers as the energy of the sound waves gets lower the farther away you sit from the speaker. Without being able to level this out you will always feel that the sound is coming more from the left speakers instead from the middle of both sides (this is an important part of staging).
Another benefit of a DSP is the time alignment of individual speakers (if going active) or left/right side. As with the leveling of left and right sitting nearer the left side means that the sound waves from the left reach your ear way before the sound waves from the right speakers. With adding a delay to the left side you can achieve that both sound waves reach your ears at the exact same time (this is another important part of staging).
But don't go crazy on this one. If your budget doesn't fit a DSP now you can always add one later.
To sum this up... a good and cheap 4 channel amp (you want to run your rear speakers of the aftermarket amp, too) with sufficient power can be had for as low as 110,-- $ from brands like Kenwood, Pioneer and others. Sure, more money will buy you more quality and power, but even the cheap amps will be better than the power from your headunit.
In addition to the amp you need power wires, speaker wires, a fuse box at the battery and wire ferules/looms. Add another 30-40 $ and you should be good to go on this.
The cheapest 4 channel amp with DSP is around 200,-- $ and comes from Kicker. It's not a high end DSP in that amp, but it gives you basic time alignment and equalizing.
RubberyDuck
Active Member
That's some great information right there, thank you. A lot to think about. I think I'll proceed with the current plan, and if I'm still disappointed go down the aftermarket amp route. Would I need to run a power feed directly off the battery and add a fuse box? Is there not an existing suitably rated fuse off which I could "piggyback"? If I remove the stock amp, do I not also lose the various noises generated by the system for seatbelts, open doors etc etc? I remember reading something to that effect...
Cathul
Well-Known Member
Yes, always run a power wire directly from the battery. And always use the biggest power wire that your amplifier of choice can handle. This way you might be able to upgrade the amp without rerunning new power and ground wires, but reuse the existing ones.
You won't loose the signals as they are already generated in the headunit. Where else should they be introduced if the speakers are directly connected to the headunit anyway?
RubberyDuck
Active Member
Ok, so the steps would be:Yes, always run a power wire directly from the battery. And always use the biggest power wire that your amplifier of choice can handle. This way you might be able to upgrade the amp without rerunning new power and ground wires, but reuse the existing ones.
You won't loose the signals as they are already generated in the headunit. Where else should they be introduced if the speakers are directly connected to the headunit anyway?
1) Source an amp with a built in DSP (I'm sure it will suffice) Fit the speakers and wire them to the amp. Presumably I can wire it in exactly the way the existing amp is wired? I'd need to remind myself, but I think I'd need 4 channels for the car, excluding the subwoofer? A channel to run each door, and each rear, effectively. I'm removing the centre speaker, I can't even begin to imagine what value it would add to a stereo soundstage...
2) Remove the EQ performed by the head unit via ForScan, instructions for which are available earlier in this thread
3) Remove the ANC and sound effects via ForScan
4) Add an appropriate subwoofer amp. This is the bigger wiring challenge. Any advice on running the power cable? Presumably an in-line fuse would suffice here? Do you know the rating of the existing amp's power? 15amp? If so, could I not run this amp of the same power source? It has a max draw of 15.5amps while bridged @ 4ohms. https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/gm-a3702/specifications
Does this mean I will no longer be able to use the built in EQ/Fade/Balance settings on the head unit?
Cathul
Well-Known Member
You have the base system, is that correct? In this case your current speakers are directly connected to the ACM in the dash.
If you have an existing amp (9-speaker or 12-speaker system) it's a bit more complicated as you then need a T-harness and stuff to prevent cutting the wires behind the radio.
1) if running 4 channel and sub you need two amps... one amp to run the 4 channels (doors and rears) and an amp for the sub. The pioneer should be enough for a smaller subwoofer.
2) yes
3) yes
4) see one. Use the biggest power cable that can fit. Add the fuse inline right behind the battery and run the cable to your amps location. Add a distribution block there and run one wire each from the distribution block to each amp (same for ground, but you don't need to run the ground wire to the battery).
If in doubt go to a local installer and buy the stuff there and let them do the install.
If using all 4 outputs from the ACM as inputs to your 4-channel amp you retain EQ/fader/balance in your system.
If you have an existing amp (9-speaker or 12-speaker system) it's a bit more complicated as you then need a T-harness and stuff to prevent cutting the wires behind the radio.
1) if running 4 channel and sub you need two amps... one amp to run the 4 channels (doors and rears) and an amp for the sub. The pioneer should be enough for a smaller subwoofer.
2) yes
3) yes
4) see one. Use the biggest power cable that can fit. Add the fuse inline right behind the battery and run the cable to your amps location. Add a distribution block there and run one wire each from the distribution block to each amp (same for ground, but you don't need to run the ground wire to the battery).
If in doubt go to a local installer and buy the stuff there and let them do the install.
If using all 4 outputs from the ACM as inputs to your 4-channel amp you retain EQ/fader/balance in your system.
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