SCCA CAM-C Thread

[mavisky]

Splitter rods measured, cut, and mounted. Hoping to pick up some 1/8" plate to make the actual chassis mounts from this week. Made some test templates out of cardboard this weekend to check clearances and general layout and pretty happy with the upright design given how little free space there is with the GT350 and the oil and trans coolers on both sides.

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[WItoTX]

100% you need to protect it. Ideally, ducting would put the actual cooling air flow into a low pressure area. Directly in front of tires we often find relative high pressure, so from a cooling standpoint, the present arrangement is probably not optimum.

I have access to a second set of liners, and I was considering cutting them. They fit really tight above the cooler, and sealing off that area would be relatively easy. However, a friend has removed his (His GT has no coolers), and I peaked inside his wheel wells yesterday at an event. No paint, and looked like he drives down gravel roads 100% of the time.

It would have been nice to free up ~12-16 lbs, but I shall find other areas. Thanks for the input @mavisky too

 

[NightmareMoon]

I have access to a second set of liners, and I was considering cutting them. They fit really tight above the cooler, and sealing off that area would be relatively easy. However, a friend has removed his (His GT has no coolers), and I peaked inside his wheel wells yesterday at an event. No paint, and looked like he drives down gravel roads 100% of the time.

It would have been nice to free up ~12-16 lbs, but I shall find other areas. Thanks for the input @mavisky too

You really think they're that heavy? I haven't weighed them yet, but that sounds like a lot...

 

[WItoTX]

You really think they're that heavy? I haven't weighed them yet, but that sounds like a lot...

I pulled them and weighed them. I had the wheels off for another project, and had a free hour to pull the clips (I should have counted, but there was no less than 20), the front was 4.1, and the rear was 3.8. I only did the drivers side, but I can't imagine it would vary too much side to side.

I can't promise my bathroom scale was perfect, but it seemed reasonable. OCD me weighed myself, then held the liner, then repeated three times to confirm. Fletcher said his were 5 lbs a piece, so your results may vary.

 

[mavisky]

You really think they're that heavy? I haven't weighed them yet, but that sounds like a lot...

The GT350 fender liners are considerably stiffer and more dense than the GT liners so your results may vary.

 

[TeeLew]

Cross-post:

Most know I have an EcoBoost which I Auto-X. Because of the lower RPM nature of the Eco, most Auto-X courses end up between 2nd and 3rd gear. It's a very clumbsy gearing combination that makes several shifts a lap inevitable.

In an effort to be able to run almost any course by launching in first and then running the rest in second gear, I am installing a 3.15 rear end (removing a 3.55). The down-side to the 3.15 is that none of the performance differentials are available. The Torsen and everything else is made for the 3.31 and numerically higher gears. The only LSD available for the 3.15 ring size is the Trac-Lok, which has relatively low locking capacity, next to no preload and only lasts a couple slip events before burning up the friction material. It's not a great combo. So, I've made my own differential plates (water jet cut) to help address these problems.

The stock plate thickness allows for 3 drive and 3 driven plates. I have made mine thinner, so I can get 4 of each on either side for more total lock. Further, I've made them from hardened 4142 tool steel, so wear shouldn't be much of an issue. I've found a preload block off of Alibaba for $15 that I think I can use for that function. In the end, I know that I'm probably giving some away to a Torsen or OS Giken, but I think I'll be a hell of a lot better than a stock Trac-Lok. At the very least, especially since I'm changing to an Al housing, I'll be a lot lighter.

I'm a bit busy presently, but this is my latest windmill to knock over. Maybe I can get to it during the last 1/2 of February.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Cross-post:

Most know I have an EcoBoost which I Auto-X. Because of the lower RPM nature of the Eco, most Auto-X courses end up between 2nd and 3rd gear. It's a very clumbsy gearing combination that makes several shifts a lap inevitable.

In an effort to be able to run almost any course by launching in first and then running the rest in second gear, I am installing a 3.15 rear end (removing a 3.55). The down-side to the 3.15 is that none of the performance differentials are available. The Torsen and everything else is made for the 3.31 and numerically higher gears. The only LSD available for the 3.15 ring size is the Trac-Lok, which has relatively low locking capacity, next to no preload and only lasts a couple slip events before burning up the friction material. It's not a great combo. So, I've made my own differential plates (water jet cut) to help address these problems.

The stock plate thickness allows for 3 drive and 3 driven plates. I have made mine thinner, so I can get 4 of each on either side for more total lock. Further, I've made them from hardened 4142 tool steel, so wear shouldn't be much of an issue. I've found a preload block off of Alibaba for $15 that I think I can use for that function. In the end, I know that I'm probably giving some away to a Torsen or OS Giken, but I think I'll be a hell of a lot better than a stock Trac-Lok. At the very least, especially since I'm changing to an Al housing, I'll be a lot lighter.

I'm a bit busy presently, but this is my latest windmill to knock over. Maybe I can get to it during the last 1/2 of February.

That's impressive. Out of curiosity is an OS Giken available for 3.15 gears?

 

[TeeLew]

That's impressive. Out of curiosity is an OS Giken available for 3.15 gears?

No, it's not. It's a bummer, because I think the Giken is probably the best available overall.

 

[WItoTX]

You're probably right, but what good does either really do the class? If we're doing it right, then we're getting the car as light as you can and ballasting up to minimum or something stupid like that (BTW, ballast placement can be a big deal) along with wings and splitters and all that. Maybe that's the direction that the people who run CAM want?

I always felt CAM (particularly C) was either a daily or weekend driven car that was basically whatever you wanted in terms of suspension or engine. It was always meant to have a finished interior and meant to be the type of car driven to the event. I think that's a great way to structure the class and I hope they don't get away from that.

Most of my recommendations would slow the cars. Make minimum weight 3600#. Who is that going to hurt? Very few and it would reduce the advantage of a big spending race to make everything light. If you wanted to go crazy, you'd still get the advantage of ballast placement, but you wouldn't have 500 pound weight difference between cars. We might even trick a couple Challengers or similar to show up.

Make the tires harder. 200 TW tires aren't really 200 TW. They're treaded qualifying tires with a wink and a nod. They're way too much of a concern as to what tire you have and its life. Give us something that's harder (at least a legit 300 TW) and as insensitive to heat cycles as we can find. It will still be faster than whatever we had 30 years ago.

If you wanted to get tricky, you'd do a tire size to weight sliding scale, but that's probably too tricky. At the end of the day, I think we often get caught in the trap of thinking we have to go faster to have more fun, and that's just not the case.

You know, I've been thinking about the bolded section probably too much lately. Looking at the stripped out Mustangs vs the Mustangs like mine (I am at 3,7XX lbs at the moment, and I could still daily my car comfortably), it's very apparent to me increasing the minimum weight would be the easiest way to level out the class. Or better yet, create a new class. Let's take C for example. Make a CAMC, where min weight is 3600 or 3700 lbs. Then make CAMXC, and keep min weight at 3400 (Or whatever it is now). I think that should be the only difference in the classes.

This allows guys to stay in CAMC, while performing whatever upgrades they would like, and then is a jumping off point for the guys who want to get crazy. CAMC guys can sort of learn the ropes in C, and if they want to go crazy with it, they can easily make the jump to XC.

Just some pondering I've done over the last 4 or 5 events. Anyways, if I hope to meet some of you all at Beeville this weekend!

 

[mavisky]

You know, I've been thinking about the bolded section probably too much lately. Looking at the stripped out Mustangs vs the Mustangs like mine (I am at 3,7XX lbs at the moment, and I could still daily my car comfortably), it's very apparent to me increasing the minimum weight would be the easiest way to level out the class. Or better yet, create a new class. Let's take C for example. Make a CAMC, where min weight is 3600 or 3700 lbs. Then make CAMXC, and keep min weight at 3400 (Or whatever it is now). I think that should be the only difference in the classes.

This allows guys to stay in CAMC, while performing whatever upgrades they would like, and then is a jumping off point for the guys who want to get crazy. CAMC guys can sort of learn the ropes in C, and if they want to go crazy with it, they can easily make the jump to XC.

Just some pondering I've done over the last 4 or 5 events. Anyways, if I hope to meet some of you all at Beeville this weekend!

Don't hate the idea as my car is still full function and full feature. I know they wanted to get bigger crowds from thr time attack builds, but Lexan windshields is outside of CAM to me.

 

[kz]

What actually might happen is CAM T cars with wings will show up in CAM C - they have much lighter cars (but within CAM C limits) with well done suspensions and often more power than we do with stock engine and a tune. None of these cars are daily drivers and in vast majority of the cases are dedicated autocross cars so easier to lose weight on.

I wrote a letter when this was still a proposal making exact point above but don't think they've listened and / or cared. Overall this is a complete departure from what the class was originally supposed to be.

@WItoTX - adding classes isn't going to happen - IMO.

 

[TeeLew]

CAM-X could be the spot for literally anything that is street legal. You'd do a 200TW tire rule and maybe a sliding tire size/minimum weight combo. But, if you've got a V8 miata or a tube-frame ponycar, this would be your spot.

CAM-C & S are for cars that are modern potential daily drivers 4-seat/2-seat.

CAM-T remains the resto-mod class, but with cars that are driven, not race cars.

Having said all this, I'm in the process of dropping about 100# off the already light nose of my car. You V8 guys are the ones that are screwed.

 

[kz]

CAM-X could be the spot for literally anything that is street legal. You'd do a 200TW tire rule and maybe a sliding tire size/minimum weight combo. But, if you've got a V8 miata or a tube-frame ponycar, this would be your spot.

CAM-C & S are for cars that are modern potential daily drivers 4-seat/2-seat.

CAM-T remains the resto-mod class, but with cars that are driven, not race cars.

Having said all this, I'm in the process of dropping about 100# off the already light nose of my car. You V8 guys are the ones that are screwed.

I think technically we can put our cars in one of the X classes (although lost track how do they exactly look now).

How much of an effort is that subframe swap ?

I picked up a spare trunk lid today but haven't done shit for the upcoming season yet.

 

[TeeLew]

I've only looked at the destructions online. I'll use a friend's lift, so I don't think it'll be that bad.

 

[WItoTX]

CAM-X could be the spot for literally anything that is street legal. You'd do a 200TW tire rule and maybe a sliding tire size/minimum weight combo. But, if you've got a V8 miata or a tube-frame ponycar, this would be your spot.

CAM-C & S are for cars that are modern potential daily drivers 4-seat/2-seat.

CAM-T remains the resto-mod class, but with cars that are driven, not race cars.

Having said all this, I'm in the process of dropping about 100# off the already light nose of my car. You V8 guys are the ones that are screwed.

I like all of these thoughts. I wish SCCA saw it this way. It just feels like something has to give.

Have fun with the subframe. It's on my list of to-do's once we sell our house. A friend did his, and his quote was "there was something terrifying about having the engine hanging from rigging that was put in place by someone you know is not certified to rig anything (implying himself)..." LOL

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