S650 vs Camaro SS 1LE

[shogun32]

I think if you really check, you'll find that the dampers, springs, and sways are the same in the Mach 1 as the PP2

Nope the mach1 has the gt350r/gt500 front dampers. The PP2 has the same underdamped magride from the gt350. The pp1 had the same damper but inferior tuning.

The mach1 spring rates were also a departure from all previous iterations.

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[13GetThere]

So far I have found that the Mach 1 and PP2 share the same sway bars. As for springs, I'm still looking, but I'm pretty sure I saw a data sheet that the springs were the same. You may be right about the dampers with the GT350, since the Ford Performance suspension kit for Magnaride doesn't need a tuner for the PP2 or GT350.

 

[Joshinator99]

I think you meant 2021 when gm sullied the 1le trim by allowing auto trans. In 19 manual was the only option.

To run e85 you need aftermarket injectors with more flow. That's what I meant by not being able to run e. I had an e40 tune on the maro because that's all that could be pushed. Mustang 18+ can run e85, stock.

I didn't know the deactivation lifters were still installed. I'm pretty sure I've read differently, but will defer to your deeper knowledge.

You’re probably right about the 2021 model year. It’s confusing as 2019 is when they added the A10 to the SS and I thought that was when they allowed the 2SS/1LE version…damn confusing lol!

The OEM LT1 injectors can indeed run E85. You’re right about the limited volume but NA guys can do it. Easy HP gain for the bolt-on crowd. The OEM LT4 injectors can also run E85 on a mostly stock ZL1, although blending down to E50 or E60 is common as you approach 750 WHP. Above that it’s a big DI system, aftermarket port injection, or a meth system. I love that the Coyote comes with DI and port…perfect! And the part that aggravates me is GM knows how to do it… the 2019 ZR1 was DI and port. I’ve resisted adding a second ECU just to control the additional port injection but will have to bite the bullet at some point.

The only LT engine that did not have the crappy lifters was the LT5 ZR1 motor, to the best of my recollection. But the brain is getting pretty full these days so I could be mistaken lol!

 

[ice445]

One thing that annoys me is that literally every Camaro that's tested in these types of reviews is a 1LE, despite that being a very rarely chosen package. Nobody ever compares with a 1SS/2SS or LT1 package.

Everyone knows the 1LE is the goat when it comes to performance driving, it's literally made for it. So why do they keep using to compare to street oriented Mustang models? Is it because GM refuses to loan out anything else? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Ford to do better in regards to handling with lower tier trims, but still. It's like putting up a regular Joe from the gym and asking him to go a round with Mike Tyson.

 

[Hack]

One thing that annoys me is that literally every Camaro that's tested in these types of reviews is a 1LE, despite that being a very rarely chosen package. Nobody ever compares with a 1SS/2SS or LT1 package.

Everyone knows the 1LE is the goat when it comes to performance driving, it's literally made for it. So why do they keep using to compare to street oriented Mustang models? Is it because GM refuses to loan out anything else? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Ford to do better in regards to handling with lower tier trims, but still. It's like putting up a regular Joe from the gym and asking him to go a round with Mike Tyson.

This particular comparison used a local person's Camaro. Probably a friend is my guess. And possibly that impacted the review as well if the TH guys are very familiar with the car. Definitely for me there's a learning curve with any car and initially driving it vs. over time I continue to learn more about how a car functions. I'm sure these guys swap cars so often that they are quicker about learning each vehicle, but I would be surprised if it isn't still a factor.

Maybe they had the Mustang and just weren't able to get any other Camaro other than the 1LE, so they did their best with what was available to them. I can relate to that, but to me the review is still somewhat silly and not well done. People that want to track their cars shouldn't be buying the PP1 unless they plan to replace wheels, tires and suspension components. I did this, so IMO it's a legit way to go. However, the TH guys didn't really explain it that way or discuss how easy it is to modify to get the end product you want.

 

[shogun32]

The th guys are jokesters who do reviews for giggles. I actually think they don't know the pp1 is pants, or are keeping mum and going along with the general public who thinks it's a track ready trim. I mean Ford marketing made claims, and surely they wouldn't lie to the buying public!!​

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Yes they should know better. And yes they shouldn't have trouble rustling up a non-1le, FE3 equipped Camaro to pitch against.​

 

[MAGS1]

The th guys are jokesters who do reviews for giggles. I actually think they don't know the pp1 is pants, or are keeping mum and going along with the general public who thinks it's a track ready trim. I mean Ford marketing made claims, and surely they wouldn't lie to the buying public!!​

​

Yes they should know better. And yes they shouldn't have trouble rustling up a non-1le, FE3 equipped Camaro to pitch against.​

Thomas races so he should know better (which I think he does). James I think does it more for giggles. And surely they should’ve been able to get their hands on a 1SS/2SS without the 1LE (they’ve done a video with a non-LE car before).

But, as far as American cars go, they really liked the 1LE their first go around and they made some not so subtle pitches to GM to not kill it off. I think that was a big part of why they picked that car to go against the S650.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

The Mustang has its merits, that’s why I used to own one (hence my screen name). I like the Mustang as an overall package; great engine, fun, fast, good looking car (although the front end S650 hasn’t grown on me yet). But I think y'all are missing the point. A Mustang GT Premium PP1 similarly equipped is more expensive than a Camaro 2SS 1LE. Dropping down to an SS further widens the price gap.

A Mustang GT Premium (high package) M6 with Recaros, Performance package, MagneRide, and active exhaust is $61,775 with destination. A Camaro 2SS 1LE with Nav is $56,390 with dest. These are as close as I could option the two cars, including both with their upgraded stereos (BOSE for the Camaro, B&O for the Mustang). A base dark horse with Recaros is $63k+, but it still won’t match a 1LE on the track. That requires the handling pack which pushes it to $68k+. Near, but still below ZL1 territory (although the msrp on my ‘21 ZL1 with A10 and a few other small options was $69k).

I agree from a capability perspective the PP1 and 1LE are miles apart. But the Mustang is $5k+ more expensive, despite GM raising the prices of the '24 Camaro several thousand dollars. And the 2SS 1LE comes w/ better hardware than the PP1 (Tremec, elec. diff., forged wheels, heated/cooled/elec. Recaros, coolers, etc.).

I think TH deserves some criticism here. Comparing a non-track version of the Mustang to the track ready version of the Camaro isn’t fair for comparing track times. PP1 vs 1/2SS Camaro would’ve been a better comparison for this video. I would not expect a PP1 (S550 or S650) to do a better lap time (or even be close) than a 1LE. The Dark Horse vs 1LE would be interesting and a better comp but I’m guessing it will be a while before they can get their hands on a DH.

And, I really enjoy the TH videos. I think overall they do a really good job of pointing out the strong points and weak points of the cars they drive. They have their favorites for sure but I think they are pretty fair with 95% of their comments.

I also like Throttle House a lot. They are not afraid to criticize cars, including Ferraris, which they are very hard on, particularly the interiors. They did both choose the GT500 CFTP over a ZL1 1LE in the past, so they're not just Camaro homers.

 

[BlackandBlue]

The alpha platform is just better from a performance perspective.

At every trim level the Camaro beats down the Mustang on a track. Chevy built a better track car. I don’t understand the debate, the numbers have been out for years.

But since track use matters to about 1% of owners, one car has a future and the other is dead. Ford will probably never equal the Camaro’s performance because if doesn’t equal sales. What has to be given up to be a track car will never be worth the discomfort.

 

[Joshinator99]

The alpha platform is just better from a performance perspective.

At every trim level the Camaro beats down the Mustang on a track. Chevy built a better track car. I don’t understand the debate, the numbers have been out for years.

But since track use matters to about 1% of owners, one car has a future and the other is dead. Ford will probably never equal the Camaro’s performance because if doesn’t equal sales. What has to be given up to be a track car will never be worth the discomfort.

Spot on. Most muscle car owners will never go on a road course. But they will do 1/4 mile, or roll racing, or even just 0-60 on the street. Chevy screwed up by taking away their only muscle car and turning it into a track specialist.

 

[PoCoBob]

When these guys, or any car review site starts talking about how this S650 compares to a S550 when was the last time they drove a S550 and how many other cars have they tested between them? If I drive my SUV for a week and then get into the Mustang I have to get reacquainted with how the brakes feel and the steering input. I doubt any of those guys could really feel a 5% +/- difference between a car they're driving today and one they drove 4 months ago. But their reviews are entertaining and both those guys can drive!

 

[Garfy]

The alpha platform is just better from a performance perspective.

At every trim level the Camaro beats down the Mustang on a track. Chevy built a better track car. I don’t understand the debate, the numbers have been out for years.

But since track use matters to about 1% of owners, one car has a future and the other is dead. Ford will probably never equal the Camaro’s performance because if doesn’t equal sales. What has to be given up to be a track car will never be worth the discomfort.

Probably true as I myself just have a base GT (I read enough about how harsh the ride is with Magneride suspension and wheels setup). The suspension is firm enough for me, any more and my old body would definitely not want to go on long road trips. That along with the more than adequate power in stock form keeps me happy knowing I have enough power to get out of trouble in some scenarios.

 

[Hack]

The alpha platform is just better from a performance perspective.

At every trim level the Camaro beats down the Mustang on a track. Chevy built a better track car. I don’t understand the debate, the numbers have been out for years.

But since track use matters to about 1% of owners, one car has a future and the other is dead. Ford will probably never equal the Camaro’s performance because if doesn’t equal sales. What has to be given up to be a track car will never be worth the discomfort.

I'm not sure about the whole alpha platform thing. The cars are so close in performance if you put equivalently stiff suspension and similarly sticky tires on both they are pretty even.

The main difference is Ford puts softer springs and shocks on the Mustang that make it more comfortable for street driving. As one of the 1% you mentioned, I think they are far too soft. But I do see people posting on these forums about a harsh ride in their regular GT quite often, so I agree with you the opinion probably isn't shared by the majority.

It's just like Mach 1 HP and GT350R. I don't think anyone would say that the Mach 1 is on a superior platform, but there are a group of magazine testers out there that feel that the Mach 1 and GT350R are roughly equivalent on some tracks. And the Mach might be faster - even though it has heavier wheels and less HP. Aero matters, tires, etc. I think the platform is by far the most minor difference between the cars, but it sure gets talked about a lot.

If anything, I'd say the General's marketing has worked on most people. Ooh, alpha! So great.

 

[Kachow]

The 1LE needs to be compared to a MACH 1 HP or GT350. Full Stop.

Had a 2015 GT PP, then a 2019 1SS1LE, now a GT350.

In terms of track performance (stock) my 2015 wasn't even in the same realm. The GT is well...a GT car. Too soft when pushed.

Now that I have taken the 350 on track - it is VERY similar to my 1LE. You can't argue the track performance for $ with the Camaro. Nothing compares to the Voodoo, however.

 

[Hack]

The 1LE needs to be compared to a MACH 1 HP or GT350. Full Stop.

Had a 2015 GT PP, then a 2019 1SS1LE, now a GT350.

In terms of track performance (stock) my 2015 wasn't even in the same realm. The GT is well...a GT car. Too soft when pushed.

Now that I have taken the 350 on track - it is VERY similar to my 1LE. You can't argue the track performance for $ with the Camaro. Nothing compares to the Voodoo, however.

Your 2017 is probably a little slower than the 1LE with stock 300 tw tires (Pilot Super Sports), but if you use something with ~200 tread wear rating like the Goodyear F1 Supercar 3s on the 1LE or a Cup 2 like Ford installed on the 2019/2020 GT350, the GT350 will be faster.

I think the brakes and engine in the GT350 are both a little better than the Camaro. The Camaro transmission is probably stronger, but the GT350 Tremec is lighter and seems to me that it is strong enough for stock power levels.

The GT350 suspension is definitely not overly firm for daily driving. Ford is cautious to never make their cars uncomfortable. And track times do suffer a little for that reason.

Plus I think the ~300 tread wear tires Ford put on the GT350 are a great choice. They don't wear out super fast. They do increase the magazine lap times and reduce bragging rights. I like Ford's philosophy on the S550 variants of making the car comfortable as a higher priority. The customer can easily modify the suspension and select stickier tires if they prefer.

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