Required Upgrades for E-85?

[cbrtrx]

I actually believe that lack of access to the fuel line volumes is what prevented commercial tuners from offering flex tunes for Gen3, and lack of ethanol %-based timing is why they don’t on gen2.

Many tuners were originally offering flex on the gen 3s but between customers that couldn't follow simple instructions and the tuners being lazy leaving trims 10 plus percent off it just left for a recipe of headaches and incorrect ethanol content learning. I have no issues with flex tuning on gen 3s but I also wouldn't offer it in remote tuning, it's just not worth the headache. The s550 platform brought in a much different type of enthusiast then in the past and many just don't understand cars or even care to.

Nowadays the internet makes it look way too easy to have an 8 second car, just throw the wallet at it and it's done.

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[GL95]

lets see the tables for all those things I quoted, or are you just saying in general ?

Everything is there...

 

[WildHorse]

I actually believe that lack of access to the fuel line volumes is what prevented commercial tuners from offering flex tunes for Gen3, and lack of ethanol %-based timing is why they don’t on gen2.

Fuel line volumes is grade school math to figure out.
V = π * r^2 * l

for pt.2, when I run E30, I can watch the timing being optimized for it with my gen2.

 

[cbrtrx]

lets see the tables for all those things I quoted, or are you just saying in general ?

The tables he listed are available in the gen 3 ecu. It's just understanding how to manipulate them to get the result you want.

For example as if the car went lean the factory tables can be repopulated to pull timing out. One thing I have found though at around 800 plus hp the car accelerates faster then some areas of the ecu that can react and adjust in time meaning that by the time the ecu reacts the damage could already be done. Now at closer to stock power levels the ecu is extremely fast and efficient.

 

[WildHorse]

For example as if the car went lean the factory tables can be repopulated to pull timing out.

Thanks. I'm more interested in 'knock by cylinder' aspect. Even with 4 KS, it can only guesstimate, no way it can be precise IMO.

 

[NGOT8R]

Many tuners were originally offering flex on the gen 3s but between customers that couldn't follow simple instructions and the tuners being lazy leaving trims 10 plus percent off it just left for a recipe of headaches and incorrect ethanol content learning. I have no issues with flex tuning on gen 3s but I also wouldn't offer it in remote tuning, it's just not worth the headache. The s550 platform brought in a much different type of enthusiast then in the past and many just don't understand cars or even care to.

Nowadays the internet makes it look way too easy to have an 8 second car, just throw the wallet at it and it's done.

An 8 second car? Heck, even a 10 second car is extremely difficult to pull off with an MT82-D4 tranny.

Team Lethal put down 830 rwhp with their 2024 GT and they ran a 10.68 @ 135. Now I know they make the power to do much better than that, but I just wanted to throw that out there to emphasize what you said about it being difficult to run a number. Of course there are other things that come into play, such as suspension setup and tires, but even then it can be tough.

 

[engineermike]

Thanks. I'm more interested in 'knock by cylinder' aspect. Even with 4 KS, it can only guesstimate, no way it can be precise IMO.

The stock f-150 and gen3 coyote already do per cyl knock retard at low rpm. Roush and gt500 do per cyl at all engine speeds. Once you understand how the gdi pump and injectors are timed, you begin to understand that the data rate these things operate at is absolutely mind-numbing and that sensing knock timed to a cylinders knock window is no problem for it.

 

[lo-fi]

I'm not a tuner, but I've been building software for 24 years (starting on Irix running on SGI boxes, plain ol' Unix, and then on to Linux, then to the containers in the cloud) and I've done my share of math. The reason many tuners don't do more is because the devil is in the details and that last 5 to 10% requires more time to execute than the 90% (or so they thought it was the ninety percent). I have a saying about building software and outsiders looking in. Everything is easy when you aren't the one doing it (if I had a nickel for every dummy who said that, particularly when it involved a path/tree traversal problem). If it was easy and lucrative there would be many many more "tuners" giving it go. The guys on forums, who definitely know their crap, don't hop into it because they aren't bold enough to exit and start their own company. True knowledge can breed fear. There is a lot of what ifs. How to deal with customers? How to deal with all the possible scenarios? Growth? Failure? Etc. So what we are left with in many cases are the dumb a$$es who really weren't all that knowledgeable, but had the balls to take the leap.

 

[Angrey]

Like any other tune once the first one is vetted the rest will use the templet with minor tweaks.

Personally I would not want a return system on a current mustang due to the limited capacity of the tank. 50 mile range is not worth it, unless a drag only car IMO. If drag only I would rather have a fuel cell.

Some tuner should follow Mikes lead and offer a true flex tune for FI and stock type fuel system.

I pieced together the perfect fuel system. To others' point, when I swapped to the MOTEC the setup had already been tested and proofed to 1100 rwhp and worked flawlessly (once we got through the beta tweaks) and it TOTALLY removed any tuning concerns for the tuner, but like clockwork, MOTEC wasn't comfortable leaving it that way, so now my fuel pumps are controlled by the M150. But prior to that, for a year and a half, I had the best of all worlds. A brushless, variable fuel system that was controlled by an electronic regulator (indexed for boost) that maintained the desired fuel pressure based off flow. The tuner literally had to do NOTHING with respect to fuel. They simply picked a base pressure and from there, the system would maintain that pressure delta across the rails. Simple. Elegant.

But getting tuners out of their comfort zone is industry wide frustration. It was a local speed/shop tuner who had it setup prior to the MOTEC. Now my fancy electronic regulator is just a regular regulator.

But between the primary side and ditching the siphon system and going with low draw lift pumps and a Radium bucket, I have no starvation worries in ANY condition (low fuel, hard left turns, whatevs) and my system operates very low draw when idling or cruising and ramps up the pumps only when the motor asks for it.

But everyone just parrots "Fore!" and deals with all the drawbacks. Because that's what everyone knows and what they're comfortable doing.

It's like telling everyone I crafted a remote control for the TV and they insist on slapping junior in the head to run to and from the TV to change the channels. It's just what they know.

 

[engineermike]

Fuel line volumes is grade school math to figure out.
V = π * r^2 * l

Figuring out the fuel volume is easy. The problem is that hptuners, which most commercial tuners use, doesn’t have a place to put it. The fuel volume prevents the learned ethanol from locking in before the new fuel reaches the engine. So it would lock in to the wrong fuel and you’d be stuck with an incorrect value, and everything that goes along with that, until your next fillup that restarts the learning process.

for pt.2, when I run E30, I can watch the timing being optimized for it with my gen2.

The gen2 doesn’t have the capability to change timing as a function of ethanol. It has to hit the knock sensors to find the limit. This is fine when NA, but you don’t want your boosted coyote attempting to hit 21 deg timing on pump gas and then knocking at those cylinder pressures.

 

[WildHorse]

The stock f-150 and gen3 coyote already do per cyl knock retard at low rpm. Roush and gt500 do per cyl at all engine speeds. Once you understand how the gdi pump and injectors are timed, you begin to understand that the data rate these things operate at is absolutely mind-numbing and that sensing knock timed to a cylinders knock window is no problem for it.

the only way that can happen is from a variable frequencies. How's it gonna detect knock through the GDI ? Spike in that particular injector ?

he gen2 doesn’t have the capability to change timing as a function of ethanol. It has to hit the knock sensors to find the limit. This is fine when NA, but you don’t want your boosted coyote attempting to hit 21 deg timing on pump gas and then knocking at those cylinder pressures

Still, the stock gen3 coyote mustang does not change timing based on e-content. Works just like a gen2. also, that's the whole point of knock sensors , wait, listen, retard, no ?

 

[engineermike]

the only way that can happen is from a variable frequencies. How's it gonna detect knock through the GDI ? Spike in that particular injector ?

You misunderstood. I was using gdi to convey how fast these computers work. It’s listening for knock and it determines which cylinder based on when in the cycle it happens.

Still, the stock gen3 coyote mustang does not change timing based on e-content. Works just like a gen2. also, that's the whole point of knock sensors , wait, listen, retard, no ?

I thought we were talking about what is possible with tuning. The stock gen3 f150 does, in fact, change timing as a function of learned ethanol. The stock gen3 mustang doesn’t do flex, torque by gear, torque by drive mode, boost by learned ethanol, etc, but the functionality is there without the need for patches or anything special to make it work. Any commercial tuner should be able to do it but they don’t.

And yes, the gen2 and 3 listen for knock and retard timing as a result. We know this works on a stock motor but does it work at 12 or 15 psi boost in the long term? Or are the cylinder pressures so high that the knock event does some damage? The beauty of timing as a function of ethanol is that it pulls the timing down on gasoline and can keep you off the knock sensors at these high cyl pressures.

 

[K4fxd]

Use a fuel hat and that's not an issue

My N/A stock fuel system car on E85 gets about 150 miles to a tank. About 125 before I start getting panicky about finding an E85 pump. A hell of a lot less if I'm playing. I do run a flex tune to mitigate some of the stress, but I hate pumping 93 when I want E85.

I hate to imagine what double the power would do to the range of the car.

 

[GL95]

My N/A stock fuel system car on E85 gets about 150 miles to a tank. About 125 before I start getting panicky about finding an E85 pump. A hell of a lot less if I'm playing. I do run a flex tune to mitigate some of the stress, but I hate pumping 93 when I want E85.

I hate to imagine what double the power would do to the range of the car.

Weird, I get close to 200 on E85 and I'm boosted, assuming you are too. I run can bus flex, so I can do whatever but normally I stick to e85 because I go to the track fairly often.

 

[engineermike]

The guys on forums, who definitely know their crap, don't hop into it because they aren't bold enough to exit and start their own company. True knowledge can breed fear. There is a lot of what ifs. How to deal with customers? How to deal with all the possible scenarios? Growth? Failure? Etc. So what we are left with in many cases are the dumb a$$es who really weren't all that knowledgeable, but had the balls to take the leap.

Someone on the forum once said that the people who have the ability to be really good at it can make way more money with much less risk and headache in other industries.

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