Required Upgrades for E-85?

[SheepDog]

I put in the sensor adapter from Motion Raceworks which is another good option. I just need to get the fuel-it setup.
https://motionraceworks.com/product...-sensor-mount-for-feed-or-return-6an-8an-10an

I have this on my return side, just before it goes into the pressure regulator with -8 fittings. Works great. I also have the Fuel it bluetooth dongle which plugs right into the Continental Ethanol sensor, and sends the data to an app on my phone, (also has fuel temp) Like @Angrey said, it does take about a minute before the content reading stabilizes being so far from the tank

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[Angrey]

Ooooh Ooooh!!! Pick me!! Pick Me!!!

Haha, I shouldn't have posted that. I always check with my local crew guys first and someone wanted it. If he backs out I'll message you.

 

[az89gt]

I think a return style fuel system is the way to go as it eliminates concerns on pushing the DW400 past it's limits, and then I don't have to worry about tuners that work with the non-return style systems.

Additional Questions:

Other than knowing the quality of the E85, what benefit does the ethanol sensor provide? It doesn't tie in to change any fueling/timing characteristics real time does it?

Are 1,000cc DW injectors sufficient, or do they need to be upgraded as well?

Do I need a tune done with PCMTec, or am I fine with something from Palm Beach Dyno, Preaux Tuning, etc that utilize an SCT?

My biggest concern at this point is finding a reputable shop to take my car - I just moved to Little Rock, and nobody here is working on Coyote setups. I'm willing to put the car in the trailer and travel 4-6 hours, but I want a shop that can define a parts list, install the upgrades, and tune it. Anyone know if that exists within 300 miles of LIttle Rock?

 

[engineermike]

I think a return style fuel system is the way to go as it eliminates concerns on pushing the DW400 past it's limits, and then I don't have to worry about tuners that work with the non-return style systems.

Just keep in mind it's not all pros. There are cons to the return-style system as well, such as minimum fuel levels being higher due to poor management of fuel saddle transfer, heat generation, possible loss of slosh bucket, loss of fuel pump diagnostics, etc.

Other than knowing the quality of the E85, what benefit does the ethanol sensor provide? It doesn't tie in to change any fueling/timing characteristics real time does it?

If you're talking about the PCMTec can-bus sensor, it will allow for timing, fueling, and many other differences. If it's just a sensor with a gauge it does nothing. And finally, if you get that proflex commander setup, it will only do fueling but not timing or anything else.

Are 1,000cc DW injectors sufficient, or do they need to be upgraded as well?

Are these the DW95's? If so, they are essentially the same size as ID1050x, depending on who you ask.

Do I need a tune done with PCMTec, or am I fine with something from Palm Beach Dyno, Preaux Tuning, etc that utilize an SCT?

For the can-bus flex, the only option is PCMTec.

 

[Angrey]

Just keep in mind it's not all pros. There are cons to the return-style system as well, such as minimum fuel levels being higher due to poor management of fuel saddle transfer, heat generation, possible loss of slosh bucket, loss of fuel pump diagnostics, etc.



If you're talking about the PCMTec can-bus sensor, it will allow for timing, fueling, and many other differences. If it's just a sensor with a gauge it does nothing. And finally, if you get that proflex commander setup, it will only do fueling but not timing or anything else.



Are these the DW95's? If so, they are essentially the same size as ID1050x, depending on who you ask.



For the can-bus flex, the only option is PCMTec.

Even just having an ethanol "gauge" is beneficial.

It's a health check on fuel quality and because E50 in the real world has trashy gasoline mixed with it, I'd much rather know that I'm currently at E55 in the lines. As I wrote before, it helps eliminate the guess work of calculations for partial fill ups (which can get REALLY screwy if you're assumption about the current partial tank is wrong or off) and testing at the pump isn't the end of the world, but to do it properly is a pain in the ass.

You bring a water bottle with water and an empty water bottle. You squirt a shot of ethanol into the empty bottle. You could skip that part if you just don't GAF or you're dead eye dan with pumping E85 directly into the test tube. But more than likely if you try to do that you overshoot and have to pour some out. With the older filler necks, no probs, just pour it into the tank. With the capless you could do that but now you have to get the little insert out to hold the cap open. You could use your grubby finger to do that but now you're touching components with possible fuel residue and we all know what happens when you get fuel on your hands and how long it takes to remove that smell and how even a tiny bit smells on your paws.

So once you have the fuel in, you fill the rest with water to the appropriate line and you shake. Now you wait.

Until someone comes up with an empirical chart to skip wait times, you should wait at least 10 minutes to let the mixture settle out to get an accurate reading. (I suppose someone could develop a semi accurate chart which plots initial reading vs final reading) but you're either taking up a spot at the pump for that settle time, or I guess you can pull into a non-pump spot to wait. Then you have to dispose of the tube contents and again, maybe you don't GAF and you just dump it on the ground or you pour it into your empty fuel bottle, cap it and put it into the trash. This is of course after you either flush the tube several times or keep it in a sealed zip lock to prevent it from stinking up your cabin or trunk area.

Having a tube kit is better than just flying blind, but it is a hassle and to be honest, it takes some discipline to do it on EVERY fill up.

Having the sensor and output is just convenient. You fill up, no calculations, no remembering what was in the tank previously, you top off, you drive for a bit to let the new mixture hit the sensor and you know. Now you know if you're good to flog the **** out of it or if you should just take it easier because the fuel is trashy.

I realize that you get MOST of the knock resistance benefits by E50, but it's the OTHER 50% that's the worry. The refiners mix ethanol with hot dog water and mop bucket remnants. When it's E85 that doesn't really come into play, when it's E50, it's another matter. Which is why most of the big name tuners weren't comfortable just using an "E85" tune and forget about it. They used a race tune which assumed the quality is there and forced in the timing (especially in lower rpm range) and a flex fuel tune for when it's not race quality E85 that more cautious and iterative. If the whole "E50 is just as good as E85" myth were true then there'd have been no need to multiple tunes.

 

[Graycarbons550]

IMO I wouldn't risk getting yourself in a lean condition. Fore level 2 with 2-274 pumps and a return setup. I went 2 and now wish I would have gone 3 for redundancy and that extra cushion

 

[cbrtrx]

If you go PCMtech and integrate the ethanol sensor, you don't need to buy the Fuel it module, just the ethanol sensor itself and the sensor housing/fitting.

If you're not going to run a return line as Mike suggested, I'd suggest getting the quality ethanol sensor fitting (like Radium) that doesn't restrict the flow as you're going to have to put it on the feed side.

You can pick up the ethanol sensor (there's a few of them that will work/fit) off amazon for around $60. The Radium fitting and whatever connection fittings aren't that expensive either. If you don't go PCMtech, then you can buy the Fuel-It module and it has a blue tooth connection to an app on your phone so you can check the ethanol content (and fuel temp if that blows your hair back) anytime you want.

No more dealing with test tube interruptions or hassles at the pump or guessing/calculating if you mix fuels. With the sensor, you simply fill up, drive for a bit and let the mixture make it's way forward to the sensor and you'll know exactly what the ethanol content is.

This also allows for some other more advanced fueling approaches. Like I said, if you tune for E70, then what you can do if you find high quality E (like 80+%) is you can mix the E80 with some high quality 93.

One of the bigger concerns with lower quality E85 isn't necessarily the alcohol, it's the garbage gasoline they mix it with. They're generally mixing it with straight trash 87 so while alcohol gets most of it's knock resistance by E50 or so (the rest becomes thermal benefit) that's only a valid assessment if the other 50% isn't straight up garbage water.

Having a sensor will allow many things and it's not that expensive or difficult to install.

Pump E85 is mixed with 85 octane gasoline, the same gasoline they use to make 87 octane which just has 10 percent ethanol to achieve the 87 octane rating.

 

[LethalPerformance]

Now that I live where E-85 is readily available, I want to convert and run 15psi (Whipple Gen 5) all the time on E-85 - I'm tired of switching out pulley/belt/tune and hunting down 108 unleaded whenever I go to the track. The car currently has 1000cc injectors and a DW400 fuel pump, so I'm trying to understand what fuel system parts I need to convert. I know I need to get it tuned (which will be nice to get away from Lund) and eliminate the cats, so for now I'm focused on the recommended parts list.

I've read quite a bit and see a wide range of recommendations, ranging from just a voltage booster on the current fuel pump, all the way up to a 2 or 3 pump return style fuel system for $2k-$3k. I won't be going beyond 15psi on E-85, so I don't intend to spend a bunch of extra money to build in extra capacity for future horsepower, but I want it to be 100% safe.

Additionally, I'm looking for feedback on the ProFlex Commander (by Advanced Fuel Dynamics). I would think it's a key upgrade since ethanol rates vary by station, day, etc., and if I ever got into a pinch I could put 93 octane in it and it would still run fine.

I would never suggest running a DW400 with a BAP to try and obtain the ability to run E85 while boosted.

With the Whipple kits, you COULD go with a deadhead entry-level kit, like our level one kit found here and still support ~ 850-900whp depending on pump & injector selection. With your mention of the 1000cc and my suggestion of 465 LPH walbros (274s), you can expect around 850whp maxed out on a level 1 kit. These kits have the potential to switch to our level 2 routing and support 1400-1500whp on e85.

Most tuners will optimize your car with a target 70-80 ethanol range unless you explictly tell them you're either testing the E85 regularly or buying it by the 55g. The difference between E70 and E85 is minimal for most all applications.

Let us know if we can help out.

 

[engineermike]

Just a datalog from this morning. This is a Whippled gen3 with the 3.25 pulley. Hasn't been on the dyno but others with this combo make 850 rwhp, sometimes approaching 900.

This is a 4th to 5th gear pull. Fuel lift pressure at the rail is blue and fuel flow is orange. This is a single DW400 running at about 20 volts, and 55# port injectors. The max pulsewidth seen on the port injectors is 10.3 ms, which equates to about 64% duty cycle. The red line is what the logic determines to be the max pulsewidth, and the gen3 will not let you exceed it (~75% duty cycle).

 

[Angrey]

It just goes to show you that there's a healthy balance between what the market is comfortable with doing and what cutting edge racers and enthusiasts are willing to do to improve the state of technology and capabilities.

It's natural for tuners, speed shops and vendors to become complacent as they grow. They forget their roots and they find themselves parroting laws and rules when it comes to systems and approaches.

Guys like Mike are golden because they don't just accept the status quo and they develop techniques and configurations that are frankly blind to the "experts" in the industry.

"You can't run returnless on a big hp car"
"You shouldn't run a voltage booster"
"You can't run flex fuel or variable tuning on a positive displacement boosted car."
"It's not possible to get boost or torque by gear through an OE computer tune setup"

The list continues to grow of myths and fallacies that big names push on everyone because they're comfortable with where they are, just pushing out the tried and true stuff.

 

[engineermike]

"You can't run flex fuel or variable tuning on a positive displacement boosted car."
"It's not possible to get boost or torque by gear through an OE computer tune setup"

I got boost-by-ethanol content and boost-by-drive mode both working in my Roush truck, all using the oem flex logic.

 

[Racinjason65]

Now that I live where E-85 is readily available, I want to convert and run 15psi (Whipple Gen 5) all the time on E-85 - I'm tired of switching out pulley/belt/tune and hunting down 108 unleaded whenever I go to the track. The car currently has 1000cc injectors and a DW400 fuel pump, so I'm trying to understand what fuel system parts I need to convert. I know I need to get it tuned (which will be nice to get away from Lund) and eliminate the cats, so for now I'm focused on the recommended parts list.

I've read quite a bit and see a wide range of recommendations, ranging from just a voltage booster on the current fuel pump, all the way up to a 2 or 3 pump return style fuel system for $2k-$3k. I won't be going beyond 15psi on E-85, so I don't intend to spend a bunch of extra money to build in extra capacity for future horsepower, but I want it to be 100% safe.

Additionally, I'm looking for feedback on the ProFlex Commander (by Advanced Fuel Dynamics). I would think it's a key upgrade since ethanol rates vary by station, day, etc., and if I ever got into a pinch I could put 93 octane in it and it would still run fine.

the Proflex commander isn’t something you need, you shouldn’t be blending fuels or trying to use “flex fuel“ on a forced induction coyote, you should run an E85 tune full time, if you want to run e85 full time. a drop in pump, with or without a voltage booster isn’t sufficient to runne85 in a forced induction coyote either, you need a return stupyle fuel system with a pt least 2 pumps. If you don’t want to spend $2-3k (minimum) for a decent fuel system, then you shouldn’t be trying to runnE85.

 

[K4fxd]

I would never suggest running a DW400 with a BAP to try and obtain the ability to run E85 while boosted.

Yet independent tuners are running this and it works fine.

if you want to run e85 full time. a drop in pump, with or without a voltage booster isn’t sufficient to runne85 in a forced induction coyote

But it is

 

[NGOT8R]

I remember seeing a video a long time ago, where Alejandro Flores at Lund said it wasn’t that E85 and a BAP couldn’t be run on an FI car, but they don’t do it because they don’t trust the end users to verify that they have tested the fuel beforehand to confirm the correct ethanol content.

I’m not saying an upgraded fuel system isn’t the best approach, but I can say that Lund tuned my car for a 150 shot of nitrous on E85 with a BAP about 4 years ago and the tuner (Brandon) said the fueling looked very good in the data logs.

 

[Angrey]

I remember seeing a video a long time ago, where Alejandro Flores at Lund said it wasn’t that E85 and a BAP couldn’t be run on an FI car, but they don’t do it because they don’t trust the end users to verify that they have tested the fuel beforehand to confirm the correct ethanol content.

I’m not saying an upgraded fuel system isn’t the best approach, but I can say that Lund tuned my car for a 150 shot of nitrous on E85 with a BAP about 4 years ago and the tuner (Brandon) said the fueling looked very good in the data logs.

You give them too much credit. It had little to do with "trust" and was more "I'm sick of getting additional ticket requests" and they ran the numbers and realized that people were continuously asking for additional support when they employed the flex tuning. They make more money selling the canned, fire and forget other setups and so that's their choice (and frankly I respect them being honest). If you want flex fuel, just find another competent tuner who's willing to support you.

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