Please Do Not Run E-85 on Stock Injectors.

[Terminator2]

My question is, why are no tuners being tagged or chiming in on here to either agree or disagree.

I welcome other input but I want actual data shown as I have.

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[Strokerswild]

My question is, why are no tuners being tagged or chiming in on here to either agree or disagree.

This.

I find it interesting that many are running FF tunes on E85 on stock injectors and reporting no ill effects.

 

[MSMStannyl]

Some good info here. I too would be interested to hear some feedback on this from some of the big tuners out there. I'm finally coming around to deciding to tune my car. Coincidentally, I was shopping around this morning comparing prices on the different tuner hardware and tunes.

My GT is basically stock other than a Steeda CAI (currently with restrictor). I was leaning towards getting a Flex Fuel tune. Realistically, E85 is pretty tough for me to get where I live so it would probably be pretty rare that I could fill up with it. However, it sounds like there are additional benefits to the FF tune, even when running 93, in that it can/will adjust timing to safely account for poor fuel quality (or at least that's how I understood it).

That said, after reading through all of this, I'm thinking it may actually be worth saving myself the $150 premium and just getting a 93 octane tune and knowing that I won't be pushing the limits of my stock injectors no matter what...

 

[Agent_S550]

Well logistically, tuning around the multiple brands, sizes, and types of injectors on the market would be difficult for any "Canned Tune" place. IE Lund/AED etc. If you consider that stock injectors are consistently always the same, you can pull the table from the factory tune, and it's relatively safe, why wouldn't they suggest the use of them? Most tuners will tell you that the injector tables take time to adjust correctly.

Call up Lund and say you run Deka 60's and want a flex fuel tune. I doubt they will have one eagerly sitting around waiting to be sent out.

 

[3beeps]

Well logistically, tuning around the multiple brands, sizes, and types of injectors on the market would be difficult for any "Canned Tune" place. IE Lund/AED etc. If you consider that stock injectors are consistently always the same, you can pull the table from the factory tune, and it's relatively safe, why wouldn't they suggest the use of them? Most tuners will tell you that the injector tables take time to adjust correctly.

Call up Lund and say you run Deka 60's and want a flex fuel tune. I doubt they will have one eagerly sitting around waiting to be sent out.

Well the point isn't about the ease or difficulty of tuning aftermarket injectors. It's about the stock injectors not being safe with E85.

Big tuners would have some failures if E85 caused issues with the stock injectors. Where are the failures?

 

[Agent_S550]

Well the point isn't about the ease or difficulty of tuning aftermarket injectors. It's about the stock injectors not being safe with E85.

Big tuners would have some failures if E85 caused issues with the stock injectors. Where are the failures?

I understand the main point of the whole thread. What i'm referring to is that they are less likely to recommend a 300+ injector upgrade for a tune that already costs people more money. Not to mention, a 90%+ duty cycle isn't a complete killer of injectors. With as many and few people that run them, most cars that have the ability to cause them to lockup from maxing themselves out have done and been upgraded to ID's.

I'm sure a full bolt ons E85 GT350 intake mani car with longtubes that gets raced day in and day out at the track would eventually find some sort of injector failure from this type of duty cycle. I just don't think such a situation exists honestly.

 

[Bluemustang]

I am subscribing to wait for more info on this. This definitely interests me as I have a Lund FF tune.

 

[Chach805]

Sub'd

 

[venumous]

I'm one of them. That's what I was told by them. I ended up not going with E85 anyway, so for me it didn't matter.

I can post emails from Lund with direct guidance that injectors were not needed on GT350 IM plus long tubes. I ran mine up to 7850 RPM when I was NA with E85 in the tank.

 

[Jn2]

I'm sure a full bolt ons E85 GT350 intake mani car with longtubes that gets raced day in and day out at the track would eventually find some sort of injector failure from this type of duty cycle. I just don't think such a situation exists honestly.

I am curious to see if any of the people running these tunes can post a datalog of their car during a WOT pull on e85.

The thing about e85 is it has a high octane rating, usually 104+. This means it has a very high resistance to knock(pre-ignition). So there is a chance that even a car who has ran out of fuel and has started to go lean could avoid failure bc of the high octane of the fuel.

For example, say you command a .86λ at WOT and around 6800rpm you hit 100% IDC, well the car would then start to go lean, it is still supplying fuel, it just is not enough to keep up with the amount of air coming in. This would cause a consistent linear increase in lambda. If you shift around 7000-7200 you might not be on it long enough to cause any damage since you have to shift within a split second of hitting 6800rpm.

 

[GTBOB]

I've been running long tubes with stock injectors/stock intake manifold on E85 since the tuning was available from LUND. I have a boatload of datalogs via nGauge going up to 7500RPM but I'm not sure what PIDs would be useful for people to examine?

 

[Jn2]

I've been running long tubes with stock injectors/stock intake manifold on E85 since the tuning was available from LUND. I have a boatload of datalogs via nGauge going up to 7500RPM but I'm not sure what PIDs would be useful for people to examine?

If you could log these that would be great. It should provide enough info to see how your car is handling fueling.

- RPM
- Engine Speed
- Throttle Position
- Injector Pulse width
- Intake Air Temp
- Ethanol Fuel % <<<if you are on flex fuel tune
- Mass Airflow
- LTFT
- STFT
- WB EQ Ratio Bank 1 <<<lambda for bank 1
- WB EQ Ration Bank 2 <<<lambda for bank 2
- Equivalence Ratio Commanded <<<commanded lambda
- Spark Advanced
- Knock Retard
- Absolute Load

 

[DarkestHour]

This forum is something else. I put this thread up to inform people that it's a bad idea to run stock injectors on E-85 due to strong possibility of maxing them out and possible engine failure that could result due to the car running lean. Many of you are close to disaster and don't even know it but hey if you want to risk your $7000 engine over a $250 set of injectors your tuner said you didn't need that's on you.
It's funny I put evidence up to show that the stock injectors are maxed out on E-85 but just because some of the big tuners says its ok I'm wrong even though no one has posted any empirical evidence to support their claims.

Neither have you. Posting an HPtuners log of an inferred value is not exactly empirical evidence. The same bologna went on in Focus ST tuning world where we were stuck at 300whp on the stock hardware and eventually extra fueling was figured out by modifying some parameters.

As you mentioned you are rather new to tuning, I would advise you to talk with someone at Lund and see if they can offer insight. Lund calibrates hundreds of cars where you maybe tune your own and don't know all the tricks that that the ECM is capable of.

Good to see you are taking the self-tuning approach. I did it for many years but I just don't have the time anymore.

 

[Jn2]

Neither have you. Posting an HPtuners log of an inferred value is not exactly empirical evidence. The same bologna went on in Focus ST tuning world where we were stuck at 300whp on the stock hardware and eventually extra fueling was figured out by modifying some parameters.

As you mentioned you are rather new to tuning, I would advise you to talk with someone at Lund and see if they can offer insight. Lund calibrates hundreds of cars where you maybe tune your own and don't know all the tricks that that the ECM is capable of.

Good to see you are taking the self-tuning approach. I did it for many years but I just don't have the time anymore.

No one is attacking Lund or any other tuner for that matter, I posted above you the PIDs that can be logged to see how the car's fueling is being handled. IDC is a math calculation based on RPM and injector pulse width. So it is quite accurate, if not, just look at his injectors pulse width and do the math yourself.

Also, Term is not new to self-tuning, or tuning others. He is only new to the tri-core ECM.

If anyone with one of these tunes is local I will go ahead and datalog your car for free and post fuel results. I don't need to see your tune or even read it your cars file, just a quick datalog of a WOT while running e85 is all that is needed.

 

[99gtp]

E85!

I have been running E85 in my car for 45k miles with no issues, below link is my datalog I did for lund with the e85 race tune. I also have flex fuel tune runs.

http://www.filedropper.com/log0005

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