OPG - Which one?

[NipSC4328]

FWIW, I've got a Bruker optical spectrometer to do metallurgical analysis as well as Brinnell and Rockwell testers.

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[Voodooo]

What do you want to inspect? I have one on hand and have the oem gears on my workbench. I have run my 5.2 Voodoo CPC motor 800+ miles and raced it at OUSCI. I put the Boundary Gears in mine. It held up fine. I am doing head work right now and fixing to check Piston to Valve clearances this week. Motor hopefully goes back together next week and we hit the Dyno. BTW it dynoed 484 WHP on 93 octane base tune 22* timing. GT350 manifold and GT 80mm TB. Had to rush to get it ready for SEMA and OUSCI. The relief spring is the only difference in the pump pressure from a GT 5.0 pump.

I didn't know anyone who had one on hand so I bought one to look for myself. I'll end up using the new housing and add new boundary gears also. For my cost of $148 it's cheap. I also bought a new pan for $258.00 and it includes the gasket.

 

[Voodooo]

I can tell you at that price alone it's a piece of shit. I wouldn't be surprised when you open it, to see some brown circular piece with corn in it.

I agree

 

[montreal ponies]

+1. My list of out of warranty projects keeps getting longer and longer :lol:

Yeah right, not touching my car as long as it's under warranty. Now if Ford comes out with some sort of SE Mustang, i might be tempted to trade in the Shelby and it's overheating tranny and diff.

 

[machsmith]

Don't scare me man...it may be cracked or broken when you open it up

 

[Voodooo]

Don't scare me man...it may be cracked or broken when you open it up

:lol:

 

[mustang1]

Thanks for taking the time to research this further. Out of curiosity, which part number did you choose? There is a Ford Performance billet oil pump for the 5.0, but it retails for $800+ and may not work with the 5.2...

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6600-50CJ

If it would work with the 5.2 (and if it's not a downgrade due to the smaller inlet/outlet sizes), that's a possibility that would at least allow you to retain your warranty... If you were willing to let your dealer install it, of course. Which opens up a whole other can of worms...

$805 for this? If the regular oil pump is $150 and an aftermarket gear is $200-300, how do they get $805?

dealer install to preserve a warranty would be interesting.

edit: I realize this is the 5.0 version

 

[Lexluther]

Apparently there have also been cases of the MMR failing in 5.0 applications (again, same gear that's used for ours).

There's a thread in the engine modification section, where user LexLuther gives a very detailed post on what he's found in regards to varying OPG offerings. Some other company, TTS or something, offers an upgraded OPG for us and it is apparently a better offering.

It was (TSS) triangle speed shop..They've been around a bit longer while Boundary OPG the other offering are good have less history. JPC Racing lost 3 engines on MMR OPG and Bridge Racing lost one. They are all 7 sec cars so the damages was 20-30k. In the mid power scale user Adlert82 on modular fords forum and also 99kbstang friend at stock power level using MMR OPG. I can go on and on.

I have to give a detailed response because Voodoo is a tool and die maker and I am an engineer and I don't want to leave blanks to cause a disagreement or not justify my position so were arguing the same point only stated differently.

If you don't feel like reading than just take my word for it on the scaling. And than skip to the bottom as the beginning is a preface to understanding why the metal is better than the other and at the bottom why the part itself is better. There are some 1 or 2 liners throughout the middle you can quickly read.

1) TSS
2) Boundary
3) MMR

With MMR they use only slightly softer grade of metal 9310 than boundary and TSS which are both 4140 absolutely no issue at all since its much better grade than factory and a mute discussion on metallurgy at face value being aerospace grade metals which Voodoo/Scott would know better than me as far as application.

The real issue is MMR cryo treats which increases its strength and hardness, at the cost of toughness. You have the Titanic effect the metal was very strong but was also brittle. MMR says heat treated but thats the raw rough shaped part they get in blanks machine it out and cyro treat. The heat treating is low grade so they can easily machine it out. No supplier is going to sell them soft metal so there is a basic level of stock and availability.

As a metal cools from a liquid state to a solid state, the atoms arrange themselves in a specific, ordered pattern, also known as a crystal structure or crystal lattice structure. Steel’s structure commonly is cubic. A cube with nine atoms, one in each corner and one in the center, is said to have a body-centered cubic (BCC) structure. Thermal treatments helps to overcome these defects, getting the material closer to a symmetric, homogenous structure and reducing internal stresses.

All OPG's originated at some form or the other from liquid state of metal. Either forged or bought as a pre-spun billet and further processed.

After the part has been machined into its shape it must be hardened, Rockwell scale is used as the measurement to the specific requirement of the part. This is where you see from the beginning of the medieval era until now to heat and cool (quench) in water the metal to harden it.

The difference is MMR uses a cryogenic process to take the metal from room temp to a undisclosed negative temp to harden the metal. Its the same process as heating treating but with a twist.The cold temperatures liberate some of the elements in the steel. As the temperature decreases, the solubility of the elements dissolved in the matrix also decreases, and they move around in the atom matrix. This results in a couple of subsequent processes that improve the steel. As the metal cools, slowly, the interstitial vacancies migrate toward the grain boundaries. Also, a concentration of a single element, such as molybdenum, becomes more dispersed. Another effect is that carbon atoms combine with any available chromium, forming carbides.

TSS and Boundary heats to harden the part. Heat treatment provides stress relief and stabilization. In fact they come pre-treated from a large foundry supplier that can guarantee the strength batch after batch.

As above related to the atomic structure of metal thermal treatments help to overcome these defects, getting the material closer to a symmetric, homogenous structure and reducing internal stresses. Heat treating elevates the temperature, making the atoms more mobile. It imparts enough heat to make the atoms move around again, allowing them to realign themselves. Slow cooling decreases the boundaries between grains, providing a more uniform crystal lattice. It also reduces internal stresses, thereby increasing the metal’s stability.

The difference is taking it down to -300 degrees produces fresh martensite, which is brittle. Taking it up to 300 degrees stabilizes it. The quenching step alone has innumerable variables, including the quenchant, such as oil, water, brine, aqueous polymers, air, nitrogen, or helium; the type of agitation—none, mechanically agitated, or ultrasonically agitated; and quenchant temperature. So you have to purchase from a large foundry and order a min number which is usually 100. MRR can order in smaller quantities since the heat treating is soft/cheaper and send them out the same way for final cyro treatment after machining.

Its more expensive, time consuming and requires a great deal of skill to reproduce every batch the same with heat treating hardness. If you have two sets of OPG's, both 60 Rockwell hardness, and one has made an 83 percent transformation and the other has made a 99 percent transformation, the second one will outlast the first one by 100 percent. I'm talking about the heat process transformation to martensit which hardens the metal. This is why the TSS OPG is the most expensive and why if you look at their site every part is blueprinted and goes through hardness Rockwell tests and a whole bunch of other stuff to guarantee its perfectly to spec. and are mated to the outer ring in sets. So the inner star gear is made and outer is made separately but in the end they must match and TSS pairs everyone via blueprint measuring.

The cyro process is cheaper and more easily reproduced as its relatively easy to get a set temp of nitrogen and the rest is just time cooling down or coming back up to room temp and amount of time in the nitrogen and out of it. But again makes a brittle part and why some have reported MMR OPG's failing.

MMR also doesn't pair inner and outer gears if they claim they do its due to a much larger tolerance than both TSS and Boundary so they are more easily paired. TSS sometimes throws out 40-45 out of the 100 they order at a time because they don't meet standards. Sometimes less depending on the batch. Boundary's process from what I was able to gather is a cheaper process than TSS as they get the material cut and then get them hardened then inspect them. TSS gets them already hardened and than cut the part and then Rockwell test again and spec tolerances. Of course the bad TSS OPG's are recycled/melted for the metal but they loose all the labor cost used before they got them to spec to size.

The tolerance the space between the MMR OPG gear and the outer ring/race are given a wider variance and larger space while the boundary are tighter specs. There is no difference in oil pressure but there will be a difference in longevity and how it wears as the inner gear smacks harder the outer race when the gap is bigger.

TSS +/- .0005 tolerance
Boundary +/- .004-.006 tolerance
MRR +/- .003 tolerance

This is about as detailed argument your going to get rather than I heard or some guys are saying. When you listen to an engine builder loosing 20k builds and says call him he'll lay it out why it was the OPG and nothing else could of caused it. Also understanding the core difference between the parts so you know why there is a possibility of failure happening or rather probability and net result. MMR will crack like a factory one if the part fails given a set of conditions (quality of fabrication to stress scale) to bring it to the point of failure. The TSS and Boundary OPG's will warp and distort and than break. In my opinion a warped or distorted part may sound awful but its still spinning making noise or fluctuating oil pressure allowing/alerting me to shut the car down hopefully before complete failure. If the part simply cracks like the factory well you've read the results on the forum and others forums. Even shutting down immediately the damage is already done due to sudden and catastrophic loss of oil pressure. The failure points on the TSS and Boundary have never been reported or reached and were talking power levels above 1000hp and even 2500hp. The MRR have been reported from stock all the way up at various power levels.

For skeptics Google is your friend compare hits from each MFG under the title X brand OPG failure and start reading. Than find out how each are made and brush up on your metallurgy and decide for yourself.

 

[xXANCHORMONXx]

LexLuther, thank you for taking the time to research and write all of that up.

 

[Trackaholic]

Great write-up, thanks!

I plan to keep my engine stock as long as the warranty is in place, and drive the crap out of it.

I am also an engineer, and my instincts tell me this:
There is nothing inherently wrong with the powdered metal OPG. It will be weaker than a billet version, but most critically, it is also much more brittle. I suspect that the failures people see are due to anomalies in the sintering, that lead to rapid cracks forming and relatively quick failure. It seems that most failures have occurred with less than 5000 miles on the car (maybe I'm wrong on that, in which case my theory probably does not hold).

So, if I drive the piss out of my car for 15,000 miles, it seems like I should be good to go, hopefully having proven that the specific gear I received does not have any defects that would lead to a rapid failure.

Even with that in mind, it does seem prudent to swap out to a stronger gear at some point, and going with as ductile a heat treatment as possible (while maintaining strength and hardness) would seem like a good plan given the difficulty in making the swap.

First though, I'd just like Ford to get their damn oil lines sorted.

Also, at the risk of derailing the thread a little:

I have run my 5.2 Voodoo CPC motor 800+ miles and raced it at OUSCI. I put the Boundary Gears in mine. It held up fine. I am doing head work right now and fixing to check Piston to Valve clearances this week. Motor hopefully goes back together next week and we hit the Dyno. BTW it dynoed 484 WHP on 93 octane base tune 22* timing. GT350 manifold and GT 80mm TB.

How do you like the CPC Equipped Voodoo? If you've discussed this elsewhere, please share a link.


-T

 

[Lexluther]

[MENTION=7132]Trackaholic[/MENTION]

Sounds like your referring to the bathtub curve of reliability engineering. That needs to be quantified by sampling all the GT350's separating failures and cataloging age and mileage to draw a proper curve. Or say f-it and take it as an overall graph with car mfg. in general than yes drive the piss out of it and if you make it to 15K than your good to go until later in time when the graph ramps up again. There can be the possibility of micro stress fractures which can't be quantified without knowing more and specifically how the metal lets go. I say this purely based on the composition of being made of powdered metal and the grains of the steel. The broken OPG's need to be x-rayed and other examples with varying mileage and condition to graph stress and wear. Otherwise destructive testing which we not being Ford do not have the parameters and baseline for this and were doing ford job for them.

What is known is that if you mostly keep it within the power curve which tops out at 7500rpm not increase the engines output. Leaving it stock the application of the bathtub curve is a safest bet as your going to get as your following fords statistics and application. Since they choose to make the OPG that way and have quantified cost saving vs engine replacement for everyone your simply live by those unpublished numbers of risk which ford was willing to take. Statistically your throwing a huge variable replacing the OPG with something else. Granted the parts are stronger and go into much more stressful hp builds but those engines don't go to 300K straight which is the mileage ford tested the voodoo in the lab. Something the aftermarket doesn't test so its not a true apples to apples comparison but rather stronger is better general simple principle.

What this all says is were at the mercy of ford and as long as they make it right and replace under warranty their own failed parts we have to shut up and take it. If you want to take matters into your own hands than replace with a stronger OPG.

The rpm difference between voodoo and coyote seems to be the only delta variance of the OPG. Throw in extra hp or higher rpm and you increase the risk. Typically shaking or vibrating metal parts strengthens them as it evenly spaces the atoms within the metal. Motorsports does this with shaking tables that they strap parts on to. So in theory the resonance difference of the fpc vs cpc is negated.

The comfort being that if you apply sound theory than the risk is minimal since there are a lot more GT's and the problem OPG reports are not huge sharing the common OPG.

Of course say 1 in 10k OPG's fails than the one guy affected is affected 100% and numbers don't matter. There are always going to be the reports of failure making those prominent and not the ones without any problems.

The OPG swap is not going to be cheap so these added principles should help ppl decide since the previous post was purely analytical of the differences between those 3 OPG's. True financially the OPG swap is cheaper than an engine but you have to consider the engine cost is nothing as its free under warranty. Also that assumption assumes certain failure of the OPG which the bathtub curve lays out failures over time so certain and clear rampant OPG immediate death isn't justified. Or at least until we know more which changes the calculations when new data is presented.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

[MENTION=27739]Lexluther[/MENTION]

Appreciate the detailed write-up, very well written and informative. As a fellow engineer, I enjoyed reading all of the details you provided as I love learning about new things and aspects that I am not familiar with or educated on. :cheers:

I think [MENTION=7132]Trackaholic[/MENTION] does have some merit to his reliability assumption, however you also have good points regarding having an insufficient data sample to truly tell whether that is a safe bet or not. I think one of the biggest aspects is letting the engine properly warm up before attempting any high load situations, and to certainly always avoid lugging the engine.

[MENTION=7033]Voodoo[/MENTION] Scott as others have already posted, I commend you on taking the plunge to test a stock OPG & Pump setup, and very much appreciate you going through this effort to share with the community here. I would have also offered compensation for this had you not already turned down Mr. Jones. Great thing you are doing, and will certainly aid the community in being able to make informed decisions in regards to whether or not we should risk staying with the OEM OPG's or go to the aftermarket, especially those of us who intend to keep the car for many many years! :cheers:

 

[Voodooo]

Do you guys that are holding out on replacing your opg's to billet gears really think it's not going to happen to yourself? And if it does happen, do you think it'll happen within the warranty period?
What I'm trying to say is, many of us will not have 36000 miles on our cars in 3 years. In 3 years and one day the OPG could fail and you're still out of luck and will have to repair/replace the engine with out of pocket expense.

 

[Hack]

Wow - that is really surprising... i would have thought most of the calls would have been "when is my production date".

And I thought most of the calls would be about "when can I get my oil cooler?" :frusty:

 

[machsmith]

I'll be biting the bullet and replacing it before the warranty period is over. Most likely later next year...if it makes it.

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