Motor Let Go Tonight

[Edkiefer]

I started a thread here
http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49520

Lets get a database set up.

I'd like to know if it was the Piston or the rod that let go.

I'm guessing it's mostly the pistons letting go first allowing the small end of the rod to go wild. Cast hypereutectic pistons are extremely sensitive to knock and any small manufacturing defect will cause them to be even more brittle.

Rods snapping is on stock motors seems more a function of LSPI (aka as Super Knock).
Since it seems it is always Cyl 2 and Cyl 3 letting go it supports the theory that this is an oil related issue as on most ecoboost engines those are the ones with the most oil coating due to pcv.

I'm not an engineer, I started studying engineering but switched to IT after a year so I do know more than the average person and alot of theory, but real world experience is lacking. For that I am in contact with my old professor who was an engineer at Opel (GM I know but I don't hold it against him.)
He has given me a few charts that are enlightening as related to Early Ecotec failures.
I'll put them in the other thread and would like the tuners who have loads of real world experience to chime in.

I think its going to be hard to tell , under a controlled tests, yes you could tell but for us I feel its tough call because of how these piston explode.
Was it the rod bending a bit causing side thrust on piston, was it the piston itself first .
I don't know for sure, but there are things that raise % of maybe problems. Most are already been posted but just thinking out loud here a few things.
1) as posted before piston material is very important with turbo engines lasting .
2) the low tension piston rings many manufacturers are using can have higher blow-by under load conditions.
3) With bad blow-by and having IC low mounted, there might be a issue of oil building up in IC, then under high rpm/loads it goes into intake at higher % rate and raises knock possibility .On this note to, if true better IC would hurt this more as blow-by gases cool more and separate oil.
4)Might be cooling problem in the block/head making some cylinders more prone to knock.
5)Timing issues with clamping force only for cam, crank sensors could affect ignition and cam timings.

My guess is these motors are being pushed right from factory so anything that not right or any combination can add up quick to a failure, but that is a guess.
I would definitely add CC on these engines even if not moded.

Be interesting to see what focus RS has changed on engine, parts wise.

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[Bullitt]

Of course the percentage is high here. Most of the members here are enthusiasts. And enthusiasts mod their cars. I spoke with a local service advisor and that particular dealership has had 3 incidences and all 3 were bone stock. And the service advisor told me one was an auto convertible owned by an older couple that could of cared less about performance. They just wanted a Mustang Vert that was economical.

This is really telling to me. I could see some trying to blame the failed stock cars as people that just beat the crap out of them, but whenever you have cars blowing up that probably never see more than 3k rpm, something's not right. I'd be really curious to know if all these rental car places in Florida and California with tons of ecoboost convertibles are having any issues. Also, like I've said before, I also was told of a dealership in Roanoke that had 3 EcoBoosts in with messed up engines a few months ago so your local dealership isn't the only one.

To the OP, thank you for letting us know about this and good luck with getting it back on the road. Sucks to see yet another thread like this but better to talk about it rather than sweep it under the rug.

 

[Glenn G]

, but whenever you have cars blowing up that probably never see more than 3k rpm, something's not right.

Actually that may be the problem, Up to 3000 Rpm you are in the very deadly LSPI danger zone.
The Attached file is for an Ecotec motor but the ecoboost engine is similar enough that it shouldn't be significantly different.

if all you do is lug your motor at <3k rpm all day your probability of LSPI Is significantly increased.

 

[Bullitt]

Actually that may be the problem, Up to 3000 Rpm you are in the very deadly LSPI danger zone.
The Attached file is for an Ecotec motor but the ecoboost engine is similar enough that it shouldn't be significantly different.

if all you do is lug your motor at <3k rpm all day your probability of LSPI Is significantly increased.

True. But if Ford is marketing this engine as the economical choice then it should be able to handle grandfatherly driving habits. Maybe Ford should have done what Chevy is doing and keep the 4 cylinder as the base engine, dial back the power to be nice and conservative (~270hp) so it's reliable for all that keep it stock and leave the V6 as the mid-range upgrade. Hopefully this was just a bad batch of early cars and the engine failures go away for 2016+.

 

[Tune+]

Yea UPR DVCC

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

UPR's check valve between the intake manifold and the can?

There's a reason that you're seeing the blown motors on this forum, it's because people mod them. 27lbs of boost?? Come on, you're running on borrowed time.

99% of the people on here who have engine failure have modified their engine/PCM, and unfortunately you always run the risk of a failure when you start modding.

I'm running 30, on a big turbo on stock motor. :lol: About to run more, and 100% e85.




As I have mentioned in another post:

When I tune the majority of Ecoboost Mustang owners that are enthusiast, the likelyhood of a vehicle with an engine failure that is running some variation of my tune on it is going to be greater than any other tune. Like I have mentioned in other post I have tuned over 400 Ecoboost Mustangs since April 2015. I have customers with 40,000 miles on their cars with no issues, I have more customers making over 400whp than any other tuner, I am the only tuner to run cars on 100% E85, I have tuned more big turbo Ecoboost Mustangs than any other tuner. I tune exactly the same way on every single car, nothing changes and nothing has changed. There is no vehicle running something special or different than anyone else in terms of "style of tuning". Timing/boost/fuel is always going to be different the same strategies are applied to all 400+ Ecoboost Mustangs, 250+ Fiesta ST's, 50+ Focus ST's and even the 2 Fusion's I have tuned. So if it had anything to do with a tune it would be on a hell of a lot more cars, especially the ones that are making big power.

Here are the trends I have been documenting on engine failures, TUNE+ Customers, NON TUNE+ Customers, and even reported completely stock cars with engine failures that have been reported to me from Ford. (Yes, I work with Ford and select Ford dealerships on Ecoboost vehicles, especially on the diagnostics side.)

1.) Failures always happen in cylinder #3. I have yet to read about an engine failure that had damage to any other cylinder (except this one here, which was unique all on its own and I doubt it was diagnosed correctly from the tech as he mentioned the turbo was damaged and the turbo favors cylinder #2 and #3)

2.) Majority of the failures have been on cars with factory intercoolers

3.) Majority of the failures have been in scenarios were the car should of downshifted, or the customer didn't downshift (MT) (Low RPM, High Gear, Full Throttle)

4.) 99% of failures have been on pump gas vehicles

5.) No engine failures have been documented with upgraded turbo's.

6.) No documented on 2016 Model Year vehicles

7.) Very few have been reported in lower gears, the ones that have were after the car downshifted, or the car just shifted into the next gear (1st to 2nd) and the driver instantly floored it

8.) No head gasket failures reported on stock turbo vehicles

9.) Timing has not been checked before disassembly on any of the reported failures, not even the dealerships that have reported to me. I have advised many dealerships that report to me to check timing next time they have an issue.

10.) There have been more FACTORY TUNED failures than TUNED failures. Every factory tuned vehicle that has been reported to me were modified in some way. Intake, BOV, and Downpipes have been the most common upgrades on these vehicles.
The fact that have been told more factory tuned vehicles have had issues, could very well be because we are a large group here on Mustang6g and Facebook but there are more non-forum/facebook people with these vehicles. This information can't be confirmed this is completely hearsay from people within the industry that have some sort of communication with me. I have not been able to get Ford to give me a motor replacement service record report.

Long story short, there is no trend. I am looking into a few theories that I have and I'm waiting on a 3D rendering of the factory cylinder head to really dig into it deeper. I will share information when I have information, because of the people that I work with in the industry and manufacturing I can't share too much information of what I'm on to until I have proven theory and documentation.

The Ecoboost Mustang became more popular than Ford could of ever of imagined, especially the amount of enthusiast that are buying these vehicles to modify them in some way. So it isn't uncommon for issues to be reported, and it isn't uncommon for manufacturers to update the engine within the first 1-2 years this is definitely NOT anything new, VERY standard. With that being said I have never really mentioned anything about the new block, rods, longblock, HPFP, and other small differences I have came across (like the valve cover differences from 2015, to late 2015. The reason for this is because I don't know what was 100% changed on the block, the rods, the HPFP, IF ANYTHING. Like I mentioned above it could very well be manufacturing process changes, or even a change of manufacturers (different looking components). I have asked for more information and nothing has been reported back to me as of yet

These cars are still "uncharted" in a sense, there are new things coming up everyday and I am exploring new product testing and new boundaries every week it seems. This is why I am confident in saying that these are just occurrences that are just going to happen and part of the world of modifying. This same trend happened with the Mazdaspeed 3. The 2006 WRX, the 2015 WRX, the BRZ, the Ford Coyote Engine, Chevy 5.3's and these are all pinnacle vehicles/engines in this type of market.

I have been encouraging taking cars to the dealership when you have an issue that isn't minor. You are going to see, as you did here in this thread, that Ford is going to be more willing to work on getting a replacement. I think they are starting to see there is something going on, and the only TRUE trend is #3 cylinder. :gossip:

However, it looks like all being #3 is starting to lose it's hold as well as there have been a few reported failures in #2.


Ford has a problem in some engines, not all, and they have been taking care of them more frequently versus dumping the customer out onto the street.

There has still yet to be any failures with big turbo big power cars that are making 380-450whp. I know of 15-20 that are making over 400whp that beat on their car daily with no issues.

If the engine failures were only on vehicles that were tuned, then we would have more of a trend of these failures. However like I mentioned above and others have mentioned there have been failures on completely bone stock cars. In fact there are more stock failures documented than modified cars.

Hell there was a report over the weekend of a customer just driving down the road at 45mph and his motor let go. There was no mention if he was accelerating or not but it was an auto car and I have had my very own car shift into 6th gear at 45mph.

There is also the variable of people hiding what they were actually doing when the failures happened. Some might say they were just driving and it let go, when they might of been at the top of second banging it off the rev limiter, or free revving it like a ricer at a light.

Hard to say, but I document any failure that I hear of regardless if it is a customer of mine, and as I said above in the quote I have multiple dealerships that are reporting issues to me with these vehicles just so I can stay ahead.

 

[wildcatgoal]

Before I knew you're not supposed to, I basically lugged my 2006 Subaru Legacy GT Spec B engine for like a year straight alll the time driving back and forth (had an out of state girlfriend... she was too hot to let go after a move, haha) and that engine never exploded and that car is still going strong (in family friend's hands). I mean I did it pretty bad... until I did it with an souped up EVO owner in the car and he basically yelled at me and told my my manual shifting skills were poop. And he was right...

 

[Tune+]

Before I knew you're not supposed to, I basically lugged my 2006 Subaru Legacy GT Spec B engine for like a year straight alll the time driving back and forth (had an out of state girlfriend... she was too hot to let go after a move, haha) and that engine never exploded and that car is still going strong (in family friend's hands). I mean I did it pretty bad... until I did it with an souped up EVO owner in the car and he basically yelled at me and told my my manual shifting skills were poop. And he was right...

That is not a direct injection engine.

 

[Glenn G]

True. But if Ford is marketing this engine as the economical choice then it should be able to handle grandfatherly driving habits. Maybe Ford should have done what Chevy is doing and keep the 4 cylinder as the base engine, dial back the power to be nice and conservative (~270hp) so it's reliable for all that keep it stock and leave the V6 as the mid-range upgrade.

I respectfully disagree with you on that point and so does Ford, The Success of the Ecoboost and poor showing of the Camaro seems to indicate Ford chose the correct strategy, what they should have done is dumb down the power delivery for people who have never driven turbo cars and think lugging a motor is fine.

Hopefully this was just a bad batch of early cars and the engine failures go away for 2016+.

I sincerely hope you are right.
So far my Data, which is a very small sample indeed is showing it is happening primarily early production (before march 2015) cars Which are Valencia engines.

Being a forum we kind of get a sort of distorted view of reality. With the majority of the 100k+ S550s sold being Ecoboosts, Something as major as Engines blowing left and Right should have people up in arms like the early MT-82s and Coyote's did. Just look at all the fuss about the heat shield thing and as far as I'm aware, no one actually had a failure involving those.

My Former Engineering professor is pretty adamant in his belief that oil is the major contributing factor in blowing engines. and the Data he has shown me is making me a beliver. the wife and I will be having dinner at his house on Wednesday and i will get as much info as I can from him and post it up.

Basically, additives in oil can make or break a GDI engine, Especially a GTDI like ours.
Additives to avoid are calcium, while Phosphorus and Zinc are good. I don't understand the Chemistry or the process by which blowby oil affects a GDI engine worse than a PI engine but i hope to by Wednesday night.

 

[wildcatgoal]

That is not a direct injection engine.

Well... it was directly awesome!

 

[ypena02]

My Former Engineering professor is pretty adamant in his belief that oil is the major contributing factor in blowing engines. and the Data he has shown me is making me a beliver. the wife and I will be having dinner at his house on Wednesday and i will get as much info as I can from him and post it up.

Basically, additives in oil can make or break a GDI engine, Especially a GTDI like ours.
Additives to avoid are calcium, while Phosphorus and Zinc are good. I don't understand the Chemistry or the process by which blowby oil affects a GDI engine worse than a PI engine but i hope to by Wednesday night.

The article in the thread below supports this claim about calcium in oil.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47658

I guess the question now is which oils currently in the market are low in calcium and high in Phosphorus and Zinc?

 

[Tune+]

Well... it was directly awesome!

I can't argue with that, I'm thinking about buying another LGT.

Let's not talk about how awesome they are here. LOL.

 

[Glenn G]

The article in the thread below supports this claim about calcium in oil.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47658

I guess the question now is which oils currently in the market are low in calcium and high in Phosphorus and Zinc?

Royal purple:first:

Edit, just read the article, Yep that sounds like pretty much what he said!
makes me wonder what oil the others were running.

 

[paullyd210]

There has still yet to be any failures with big turbo big power cars that are making 380-450whp. I know of 15-20 that are making over 400whp that beat on their car daily with no issues.

There is also the variable of people hiding what they were actually doing when the failures happened. Some might say they were just driving and it let go, when they might of been at the top of second banging it off the rev limiter, or free revving it like a ricer at a light.

why is it that cars with bigger turbos have yet to have any issues is it because they spool at a higher rpm than stock and in essence are causing less stress on the engine regardless of what gear they're in? or...?


yeah, ill be honest this weekend I downshifted using paddles into 2nd then quickly accelerated and next thing I know I'm at 8,250+ RPMS and the car didn't shift on its own when it usually does prior to hitting redline I was confused for a bit but I can easily see someone also doing this and blowing theirs up

 

[Tune+]

why is it that cars with bigger turbos have yet to have any issues is it because they spool at a higher rpm than stock and in essence are causing less stress on the engine regardless of what gear they're in? or...?


yeah, ill be honest this weekend I downshifted using paddles into 2nd then quickly accelerated and next thing I know I'm at 8,250+ RPMS and the car didn't shift on its own when it usually does prior to hitting redline I was confused for a bit but I can easily see someone also doing this and blowing theirs up

That is correct, big turbo's cause less "instant stress" on these cars. Quick spooling turbo's are great, but you have to have a limit. Bring it all on at once can prove hazardous and honestly that is what is always sticking in my head.

That is why my torque curves are much softer than every other tuner out there.

Regarding your issue, it would be next to impossible for your car to rev any higher than 7200rpms. The throttle cut off is 6800 and fuel cut is 7200. If you went above that you would have to have a manual and shift from the top of 3rd into 2nd. :headbonk:

 

[paullyd210]

That is correct, big turbo's cause less "instant stress" on these cars. Quick spooling turbo's are great, but you have to have a limit. Bring it all on at once can prove hazardous and honestly that is what is always sticking in my head.

That is why my torque curves are much softer than every other tuner out there.

Regarding your issue, it would be next to impossible for your car to rev any higher than 7200rpms. The throttle cut off is 6800 and fuel cut is 7200. If you went above that you would have to have a manual and shift from the top of 3rd into 2nd. :headbonk:

hahah :lol: I was 1k off then, i could've sworm it was a little higher than 7200 but I'm not going to try to replicate it, thanks for the info Adam

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