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LSPI A KNOCK ON THE NEWEST ENGINES 2/4/16

ypena02

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http://fuelsandlubes.com/fli-article/lspi-a-knock-on-the-newest-engines/

LSPI: A KNOCK ON THE NEWEST ENGINES
F&L Asia / February 4, 2016

By Hank Hogan

For an illustration of the law of unintended consequences, consider the worldwide push to produce cars with higher fuel economy. It’s good for the planet, because it lessens the impact of carbon emissions. But, it may be bad for cars because current approaches to boost fuel economy increase the likelihood of low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI). A combustion abnormality, LSPI can lead to knocking so severe it can destroy an engine.

A series of papers presented at the JSAE/SAE Powertrains, Fuels and Lubricants International Meeting in Kyoto, Japan in September, indicated that LSPI arises from interactions between lubricants, fuels and engine design/operation. With regard to lubricants, there’s one likely culprit: the CaCO3(calcium carbonate) in the detergent additive.

“We have to find an alternative to CaCO3,” said Yasuo Moriyoshi, professor of mechanical engineering at Japan’s Chiba University. Moriyoshi was co-author of a paper on the calcium contribution to LSPI.

He was also involved in an industry research consortium sponsored by Toyota, Honda, Mazda and other OEMs from 2011 to 2013. The results that were presented in September built upon that research.

So, will reformulating an engine oil to be calcium-free solve the low speed pre-ignition problem? Perhaps not. One issue is that getting rid of calcium may be difficult, said Ian Elliott, product development engineer for automotive engine oils at San Ramon, Calif., U.S.A.-based Chevron Oronite. “Eliminating calcium would put unnecessary constraints on the formulator, limiting the tools that can be used to create an oil that has robust performance in other areas, such as cleanliness,” he said.

Elliott also noted that it may not be necessary to remove calcium completely. The additive plays a role in the frequency of LSPI. However, so too do fuel composition and engine design. The focus, therefore, should be on performance rather than chemical limits, he said.

Chart courtesy of Afton Chemical.
Chart courtesy of Afton Chemical.
Elliott, who also spoke at the conference, noted that today’s advanced engines have been downsized from earlier generations to increase fuel economy. To produce the power needed to give acceptable performance, the engines have also been turbocharged. As a result, advanced engines now spend much more time in a low-speed high-torque regime that leads to LSPI.

Resolving this issue will probably become more important, Elliott said. A larger percentage of engines are downsized and turbocharged, which means more cars on the road can suffer low-speed pre-ignition and potentially experience engine failure.

An important step in avoiding such issues is developing a test that can tell a good oil from bad, and distinguish between different engine designs with regard to LSPI. To that end, researchers from Chevron Oronite reported on the results from different tests intended to quantify low-speed pre-ignition. One approach is to look for abnormal cylinder pressure spikes. A second is to measure how early combustion occurs by determining the MFB02 point, the point at which 2% of the cylinder charge is burned. A third technique combines the first two, only counting as an LSPI event those times when there is both abnormal cylinder pressure and early combustion. According to Chevron Oronite researchers, this is probably the best method.

There also can be differences in how events are recorded. Pre-ignition in one cycle tends to lead to the same in subsequent cycles. So, in one counting approach, multi-cycle events are grouped together. In another, an event in each cycle is counted separately.

The Chevron Oronite investigation revealed that three different tests produced the same qualitative results. That is, if formulation A was better for LSPI than formulation B in one test, it was better in all tests. But the degree of improvement and the starting point of the LSPI events varied between the different tests.

Chevron Oronite LSPI test bed.
Photo courtesy of Chevron Oronite.
In discussing this, Elliott noted that a test is an important tool. However, it must be able to statistically differentiate between high and low LSPI activity oils and do so repeatedly. It also has to reasonably represent field conditions.

“A single test may meet the needs of the industry, as long as all the technical details are clear so there is less room for different interpretations,” he said.

Additive maker Afton Chemical of Richmond, Va., U.S.A. is also investigating LSPI. Ian Bell, senior R&D director, noted that in addition to calcium-based detergents, other components of the finished lubricant can have a substantial effect.

“For instance, there is a clear impact from all organic materials, and base oils can also be significant,” Bell said.

Other factors also play a role. For example, different engine hardware designs and combustion management strategies can have an influence that is greater than that of the lubricant formulation, Bell said. Consequently, he added, the solution must be a systems approach involving engine, fuel and lubricant.

Finding a solution is a pressing problem, particularly for next-generation passenger cars that have to achieve regulation-driven higher fuel economy. For instance, future vehicles will have to meet the U.S. mandated 54.5 mile per gallon fleet corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standard in 2025, a near doubling of fuel efficiency as compared to that required of cars as little as five years ago. Other regions are also raising their fuel economy requirements. Therefore, cars will increasingly be operating in regimes where LSPI events will likely be more common.

At F+L Week 2015 organised by F&L Asia in Singapore in March 2015, Afton Chemical presented a survey of LSPI performance for a range of commercial GF-5 products, showing that all lube technologies tested failed proposed LSPI requirements. So, formulations will have to change, Bell said.

LSPI is not a simple problem, said Thomas Briggs, Jr., manager of engine systems research and development at Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, U.S.A. Briggs led a team working with industry partners GM, Ford, Honda and other OEMs that investigated low-speed pre-ignition beginning in 2011. The group used specialized tools, such as high-speed video and crevice sampling, to better determine the source of the problem.

The captured video showed that droplets of material were coming out of the piston crevice in the engine. Sometimes those droplets burned, leading to LSPI and strong engine knock. The video showed that the material was a fluid. The team devised methods to pull the fluid out of the crevice and then tested it to study its chemical composition.

“It’s fuel. It’s lube. It’s other material. So, it’s a complex cocktail of fluids,” Briggs said.

LSPI-3-CarBy 2014 the program wrapped up, having produced information that gave additive companies a rough idea of what was needed to solve the problem. Briggs noted that LSPI arises when engines are in the 1500-2000 rpm range, a relatively slow speed, while still exerting plenty of torque. That’s also when a large supply of fuel is present. Yesterday’s engines spent little time in these operating conditions, although Briggs thinks they too would experience LSPI if they had.

Tests exist that can readily discriminate between the LSPI impact of various formulations, Briggs said. These are being further refined into upcoming ILSAC GF-6 and GM dexos LSPI tests. With the right tests and the research already done, Briggs is confident that formulators and the industry as a whole can come up with the recipe to solve the problem.

That will come about, in part, as a result of continued research on the mechanisms behind and possible fixes for LSPI. For instance, an industry consortium is being formed, with a target start date of April 2016. Researchers from Chiba University will be part of this effort, but the focus will be different than the previous work of the consortium.

“Oil companies are interested in what kind of detergent affects pre-ignition,” Moriyoshi said.

Southwest Research Institute is also involved in a follow-up consortium which started in 2014 and is scheduled to wrap up in 2018. Currently, ways are being investigated to replicate what happens in an engine on a test bench, which will give researchers greater access and more tools to understand what is going on. The goal is to determine the chemical steps that lead to LSPI, which will help in figuring out what should be done to address it.

Lube formulations are a current focus, but in time attention may turn to fuels. There have been some published results that indicate different fuels, whether due to regional variations, tank aging, or other factors, could have an impact. This can be of particular concern to OEMs that might, for instance, be selling products in China at a time when the government mandates a change in fuel composition – perhaps as part of an effort to reduce CO2 emissions.

“You can get a wide range of severity of the problem, depending on the fuel,” said Briggs.
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jbailer

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Thanks for sharing. TBH, I thought this was going to be another doom and gloom, I bought a time bomb post. This is an interesting perspective on LSPI. I always thought it was more a fuel/octane rather than oil issue. For me, this is just one more reason to always drive my car in "SPORT" mode, keeping it out of the 1500-2000 RPM area more often.
 

Joe_Stang

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Thanks for sharing. TBH, I thought this was going to be another doom and gloom, I bought a time bomb post. This is an interesting perspective on LSPI. I always thought it was more a fuel/octane rather than oil issue. For me, this is just one more reason to always drive my car in "SPORT" mode, keeping it out of the 1500-2000 RPM area more often.
Yup sport mode or track mode when racing. I never ever floor it in 5th or 6th gear anymore. I always downshift with the paddles if I have to. Shouldn't have to do that but it is what it is lol
 

murphy

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Yup sport mode or track mode when racing. I never ever floor it in 5th or 6th gear anymore. I always downshift with the paddles if I have to. Shouldn't have to do that but it is what it is lol
With all this LSPI lately, I downshift if I'm coasting in 2nd and want to moderately accelerate. :lol:
 

Anthony@FFtec

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LSPI isn't new thing, there is just far more awareness now, as it pertains to owners! ... and that is a good thing! :)

I know whenever I am calibrating an engine, I understand that clients sometimes lug the engine in a high gear. I usually setup the mapping to reduce ignition advance and introduce more fuel (more octane) during these operating conditions to aid in combating LSPI.

I'm curious if MEB engines are failing due to detonation induced pre-ignition .... hmm. Maybe the engine needs a better spark plug option, or a unique fuel solution. If it is the case, methanol may be able to help!

Random note: Low Speed Pre-ignition is not detonation. They are two different phenomenon to which an operating engine can be susceptible. The terms are not interchangeable :D
 
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arghx7

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Oil formulation is only one part of it. And let's face it, people are very adamant about their oil of choice and you can't expect the general owner to change.

Despite the freak outs we've been seeing on the forum recently, the stock tune is very conservative at low speed lugging and there's no indication that LSPI is a major problem for a stock car. On a modded tune, limiting engine torque under 2500 rpm (certainly not increasing much over stock, or keeping it the same) is the easiest way to reduce it.

Now, an engine that does have a problem is the 2015+ Subaru WRX engine. People were recording videos of ticking sounds on stock tunes that were definitely preignition. Subaru recalled the 2015's and released a software update countermeasure for it. The Ecoboost Mustangs are nowhere near that level of concern.
 

rainier446

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Yup sport mode or track mode when racing. I never ever floor it in 5th or 6th gear anymore. I always downshift with the paddles if I have to. Shouldn't have to do that but it is what it is lol
Slightly off topic, but I also live in Glen Burnie. Would be nice to meet more local mustang owners.

On the topic of LSPI, definitely not new as FFTec said but awareness is going up. The Speed3 guys have been battling this for almost ten years and the Focus ST guys the past few. Audi and BMW use walnut blasting as preventive maintenance, but IMO the best thing you can do is use a high quality oil to help. It's expensive to run Amsoil or Redline, but if you do oil analysis you can easily tell how much better it is. I frequent the BITOG (Bob Is the Oil Guy) forum and there's a good bit of discussion on these subjects in there. Sure the manufacturers are aware of the issue but AFAIK the only physical changes that have happened is some use both port and DI (Subaru, BMW) and others coat their valves in a "slippery" coating (Hyundai, KIA).
 

ElAviator72

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Oil formulation is only one part of it. And let's face it, people are very adamant about their oil of choice and you can't expect the general owner to change.

Despite the freak outs we've been seeing on the forum recently, the stock tune is very conservative at low speed lugging and there's no indication that LSPI is a major problem for a stock car. On a modded tune, limiting engine torque under 2500 rpm (certainly not increasing much over stock, or keeping it the same) is the easiest way to reduce it.

Now, an engine that does have a problem is the 2015+ Subaru WRX engine. People were recording videos of ticking sounds on stock tunes that were definitely preignition. Subaru recalled the 2015's and released a software update countermeasure for it. The Ecoboost Mustangs are nowhere near that level of concern.
At least one dead stock engine has been blown due to LSPI. The guy posted in the S550 General forum about a week ago...fully covered under Ford's warranty. Who knows if the engine also had intake oil issues? :shrug: I hope Ford analyzes the hell out of the engine and the oil!

I'm certainly going to be more aware of it driving my new car when it comes. There's a steep hill I drive up every day on my commute (about 3 miles from home). It is on a highway. I used to leave the car (my last ecoboost) in 6th if I was going 60 MPH, or downshift to 5th if I was going slower (speed limit is 55 in this zone :D Sometimes you go slow because you get caught behind a semi or a bus....). Might just have to start downshifting to 4th on this hill ;)

EDIT: Here's the post I was referencing, apparently it got moved to the Ecoboost subforum: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47330
 
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Kjewer1

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Watch your boost at highway speeds when you climb hills. You can get it to 10-15 psi at very low throttle angle. Flooring it, punching it, etc has nothing to do with LSPI. Doing so causes a downshift (on autos) and that's good, since it raises RPM out of the danger zone. On a manual that's up to the driver I guess.

15 psi boost is likely to be around 276 ft lbs using 4 ftlbs per psia per liter as a conservative estimate, and that puts BMEP around 20 bar. ;) That's a ton of BMEP when you consider the low RPM where these engines can generate those pressures, and well into the accepted LSPI range. This can happen during perfectly normal easy driving with these cars.
 

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I keep bumping into amsoil in a lot of discussions, is amsoil the best of the best there is out there?
 

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jbailer

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I keep bumping into amsoil in a lot of discussions, is amsoil the best of the best there is out there?
I'm as far away from an oil expert as you can get but over the years I have done a lot of research in selecting oils for my car. In my opinion, Amsoil is one of the best with the difference being you are funding a pyramid scheme rather than a corporate marketing engine when you purchase. It's hard to tell which is really the best oil because for the most part it seems we just listen to what their marketing or someone else that claims to be an expert says about it. Plus, many of the technical experts we trust and listen to sell Amsoil because it is good and they can make more money from it, being part of the pyramid. The way I like to research is by comparing oils people/marketing brags about in OAR reports. The trick is to try to compare the same platform and try to identify averages. I chose Pennzoil Platinum, very good and I can pick it up at the store reasonably priced. I would trust Amsoil as well though (not better).
 

lisandra

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So between amsoil and redline..which and why? I admit oil ,oil grades and oil weights is not my Forte. Im currently on Rotella t6.
 

rainier446

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So between amsoil and redline..which and why? I admit oil ,oil grades and oil weights is not my Forte. Im currently on Rotella t6.
To me I'd say amsoil. The cost is almost identical and during independent tests they've come out on top in almost every category.

I'm not saying amsoil is the best oil, as it is different between apllications. I'm saying that amsoil has done more with its oil towards the prevention of carbon buildup than others have so it fits the bill on the ecoboost DI motors.

Lots of automotive oil experts push mobil 1 0w-40 for a majority of cars, but you definitely DO NOT want that crap in a DI motor. I did a lot of testing on my focus ST in regards to the carbon buildup, including running an assortment of catch cans but the best thing I did was switch oils. I used to swear by m1, but not anymore.

When I last checked it was too new to make an educated guess on it, but some people claim the pennzoil platinum works very well and is much cheaper than amsoil.

Side note: Amsoil is definitely a pyramid scheme style of "company". Do your research and find a place that will sell it to you at $9 or less per quart of the signature synthetic. I know a guy that will drop ship it to you at basically cost, because he's a chemical engineer working in the automotive field and has lots of friends who need oil lol. If anyone is interested just let me know, I'll hook you up.

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ElAviator72

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I think this bears mentioning:

Oil in the intake not only creates problems in a DI engine through the action of the additives (as per the original article), but also because oil in the combustion chamber has the overall effect of lowering the octane rating of the fuel when it burns. So, smoking/pcv problems should be taken very seriously in our engines :thumbsup: A little oil in the combustion chamber might just be what's needed to push an engine already running on the edge over it, and then kaboom. It looks like Ford has addressed some PCV issues...
 

ElAviator72

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On the issue of Rotella-T:

Anyone know what additives this oil has in it? To me, it just seems like an all around bad idea to be running heavy duty oil intended for commercial diesel engines in ours (especially in winter, where we'll be having problems with oil flow until everything is up to temp, just due to the heavier weight).
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